These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The case for D-scan disruption
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#1 - 2013-05-07 15:37:53 UTC
TL;DR: A D-scan disruption module will entice miners into LOWSEC.

Odyssey is upon us, and with it, the hope of a revived low sec industry. Low sec, currently, is the most dangerous place for industry. Where HISEC has Concord, and NULLSEC has coalitions and vast swathes of empty buffer space, LOWSEC has pirates, neutrals, and militias constantly searching for the easy mining target and/or the proverbial good fight. The changes in odyssey, namely the resource redistribution, are providing a recognizable carrot on a stick to entice the normal HISEC miner to indulge in an activity that allows for slightly higher profits; but it is not enough.

There is not a single chance that the exploration and resource changes will be enough to charm New Eden industrialists out of HISEC and into the asteroid (and target) rich environment of LOWSEC. It is simply too easy to recognize a mining target on D-scan, and warp to the target; this is just the individual miner in a Venture, I don’t believe I have ever seen a LOWSEC mining op with more than one barge or exhumer in LOWSEC. Ever. And that’s a shame.

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.

I’m curious, miners, I have two questions. Do you plan on moving you and / or your corporation into LOWSEC for mining operations? If not, would a D-Scan disruption module be enough to entice you to come into LOWSEC?

This was originally posted on http://highdrag.wordpress.com .

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.
Cal Stantson
17eme Chasseurs a Cheval
#2 - 2013-05-07 16:04:03 UTC
There's a slight possibility that someone might use it for something other than mining. In PvP, for example, it might be really really useful for everything all the time.
Goti fase
Faulcon de Lazy
#3 - 2013-05-07 16:12:43 UTC
Cal Stantson wrote:
There's a slight possibility that someone might use it for something other than mining. In PvP, for example, it might be really really useful for everything all the time.


Make it only fit-able on Mining ships and can only affect the ship it's on rather than a bubble where every ship inside is protected.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-05-07 16:14:26 UTC
........ ...... Great idea.

I'd go as far to say let the barges fit a rig that hides them from dscan. And still let them see....

I have done a lot of mining... And even with the new changes I have no plans at all to venture into lowsec. Ive found that Nul sec is "safer" compared to the amount of traffic low can get.


With these new changes I just see the loss of minng productivity from high sec shifting out to nul. Which is good... But the large alliance already have a lot of control over resources.
Cal Stantson
17eme Chasseurs a Cheval
#5 - 2013-05-07 16:19:31 UTC
Goti fase wrote:
Cal Stantson wrote:
There's a slight possibility that someone might use it for something other than mining. In PvP, for example, it might be really really useful for everything all the time.


Make it only fit-able on Mining ships and can only affect the ship it's on rather than a bubble where every ship inside is protected.


Why does it need to be a bubble then? It could just be a thing that removes you from D-Scan.
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#6 - 2013-05-07 16:53:50 UTC
I like the idea of being able to 'hide' from a d-scan but it should be a high slot module for sure. If you wanna go solo then you lose 1/3 yield for the safe factor ( in a hulk anyway )

-- OR --

Reserve it for command ships only, it will get more Orcas out on the field. Even add an Orca bonus that reduces usage by 95% ( think torpedo launches on a Nemesis ) This way if someone wants to use if for PvP they still need to field a Orca not just another command ship.



Either way the range should be fixed at 5km, no hiding a big fleet in a bubble that small as well as using drones at your own risk as they will be outside the bubble as well.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-05-07 17:17:13 UTC
Kyle Yanowski wrote:

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.


Interesting idea... but potentially OP.

Does it work only on ships, or does it include drones? POS modules? Wrecks? cans? bubbles? probes?

This essentially is a group cloak as long as you are offgrid:
-- In PvP: Hide my backup, just off grid, so they can't be scanned, and then when someone falls into my trap warp them into the fight.
-- In PvE: This would make running sites in extremely safe (especially in WHs). No-one would know you are in a site unless they warp directly into the site.

While it opens up some interesting tactical scenarios, it's essentially a "super keep me safe mod" for PvE, and it's a very potent mod for PvP. This absolutely NEEDS to have a major drawback in order to be balanced:

Potential drawbacks:
-- The mod immobilizes the ship during the entire cycle (give it a something akin to siege cycle)
-- The mod probably needs to be fit only to specific classes of ships, and not "any ship".
-- When activated, the mod probably needs to increases it's signature strength of the "deployer", thereby making it easy to spot/find using combat probes. Perhaps the field itself needs a specific signature designation so someone can enter system, deploy a Deep space scan probe, and instantly tell there's a Anti-dscan field up that can be scanned down.

Honestly, it probably needs all of the above implemented to be even remotely balanced.


Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#8 - 2013-05-07 17:25:52 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kyle Yanowski wrote:

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.


Interesting idea... but potentially OP.

Does it work only on ships, or does it include drones? POS modules? Wrecks? cans? bubbles? probes?

This essentially is a group cloak as long as you are offgrid:
-- In PvP: Hide my backup, just off grid, so they can't be scanned, and then when someone falls into my trap warp them into the fight.
-- In PvE: This would make running sites in extremely safe (especially in WHs). No-one would know you are in a site unless they warp directly into the site.

While it opens up some interesting tactical scenarios, it's essentially a "super keep me safe mod" for PvE, and it's a very potent mod for PvP. This absolutely NEEDS to have a major drawback in order to be balanced:

Potential drawbacks:
-- The mod immobilizes the ship during the entire cycle (give it a something akin to siege cycle)
-- The mod probably needs to be fit only to specific classes of ships, and not "any ship".
-- When activated, the mod probably needs to increases it's signature strength of the "deployer", thereby making it easy to spot/find using combat probes. Perhaps the field itself needs a specific signature designation so someone can enter system, deploy a Deep space scan probe, and instantly tell there's a Anti-dscan field up that can be scanned down.

Honestly, it probably needs all of the above implemented to be even remotely balanced.




Fantastic, I love the drawbacks!

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-05-07 18:13:39 UTC
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
TL;DR: A D-scan disruption module will entice miners into LOWSEC.

Odyssey is upon us, and with it, the hope of a revived low sec industry. Low sec, currently, is the most dangerous place for industry. Where HISEC has Concord, and NULLSEC has coalitions and vast swathes of empty buffer space, LOWSEC has pirates, neutrals, and militias constantly searching for the easy mining target and/or the proverbial good fight. The changes in odyssey, namely the resource redistribution, are providing a recognizable carrot on a stick to entice the normal HISEC miner to indulge in an activity that allows for slightly higher profits; but it is not enough.

There is not a single chance that the exploration and resource changes will be enough to charm New Eden industrialists out of HISEC and into the asteroid (and target) rich environment of LOWSEC. It is simply too easy to recognize a mining target on D-scan, and warp to the target; this is just the individual miner in a Venture, I don’t believe I have ever seen a LOWSEC mining op with more than one barge or exhumer in LOWSEC. Ever. And that’s a shame.

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.

I’m curious, miners, I have two questions. Do you plan on moving you and / or your corporation into LOWSEC for mining operations? If not, would a D-Scan disruption module be enough to entice you to come into LOWSEC?

This was originally posted on http://highdrag.wordpress.com .

So what you want it something that simulates the benefits of a cloak, without negating your ability to profit during your immunity?

not only is this OP in k-space, it would be utterly broken in wormholes. at least in k-space you can see that there IS someone hidden there because :local:, but in WH's, D-scan is the only way to maintain situational/area awareness, and a module like this would allow fleets to be completely undetectable.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#10 - 2013-05-07 18:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

not only is this OP in k-space, it would be utterly broken in wormholes. at least in k-space you can see that there IS someone hidden there because :local:, but in WH's, D-scan is the only way to maintain situational/area awareness, and a module like this would allow fleets to be completely undetectable.

that is wrong, because :scanprobes:. If you cant use d-scan yourself while hidden from d-scan - there is a chance that you will miss probes that are scanning you down.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#11 - 2013-05-07 18:46:45 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
TL;DR: A D-scan disruption module will entice miners into LOWSEC.

Odyssey is upon us, and with it, the hope of a revived low sec industry. Low sec, currently, is the most dangerous place for industry. Where HISEC has Concord, and NULLSEC has coalitions and vast swathes of empty buffer space, LOWSEC has pirates, neutrals, and militias constantly searching for the easy mining target and/or the proverbial good fight. The changes in odyssey, namely the resource redistribution, are providing a recognizable carrot on a stick to entice the normal HISEC miner to indulge in an activity that allows for slightly higher profits; but it is not enough.

There is not a single chance that the exploration and resource changes will be enough to charm New Eden industrialists out of HISEC and into the asteroid (and target) rich environment of LOWSEC. It is simply too easy to recognize a mining target on D-scan, and warp to the target; this is just the individual miner in a Venture, I don’t believe I have ever seen a LOWSEC mining op with more than one barge or exhumer in LOWSEC. Ever. And that’s a shame.

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.

I’m curious, miners, I have two questions. Do you plan on moving you and / or your corporation into LOWSEC for mining operations? If not, would a D-Scan disruption module be enough to entice you to come into LOWSEC?

This was originally posted on http://highdrag.wordpress.com .

So what you want it something that simulates the benefits of a cloak, without negating your ability to profit during your immunity?

not only is this OP in k-space, it would be utterly broken in wormholes. at least in k-space you can see that there IS someone hidden there because :local:, but in WH's, D-scan is the only way to maintain situational/area awareness, and a module like this would allow fleets to be completely undetectable.


There should always be a tradeoff, and you just happened to highlight one. I'm sure the savy miner would be able to assess which threat was greater, a probing gang, or a random D-Scan pirate. Again, a deep space probe is a counter to D-scan disruption.

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-05-08 18:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
TL;DR: A D-scan disruption module will entice miners into LOWSEC.

Odyssey is upon us, and with it, the hope of a revived low sec industry. Low sec, currently, is the most dangerous place for industry. Where HISEC has Concord, and NULLSEC has coalitions and vast swathes of empty buffer space, LOWSEC has pirates, neutrals, and militias constantly searching for the easy mining target and/or the proverbial good fight. The changes in odyssey, namely the resource redistribution, are providing a recognizable carrot on a stick to entice the normal HISEC miner to indulge in an activity that allows for slightly higher profits; but it is not enough.

There is not a single chance that the exploration and resource changes will be enough to charm New Eden industrialists out of HISEC and into the asteroid (and target) rich environment of LOWSEC. It is simply too easy to recognize a mining target on D-scan, and warp to the target; this is just the individual miner in a Venture, I don’t believe I have ever seen a LOWSEC mining op with more than one barge or exhumer in LOWSEC. Ever. And that’s a shame.

So here is a modest proposal. Introduce an active module that creates a bubble of D-scan interference. Those on the outside cannot see (on D-scan) what is inside the bubble, likewise, those that arewithin the bubble cannot see outside of the bubble (The miners would have to rely on a scout within their Mining Operation to provide early warning). By introducing this module, we create an added layer of perceived protection for miners within LOWSEC, and possibly, a resurgence of mining operations in the most dangerous areas of New Eden.

I’m curious, miners, I have two questions. Do you plan on moving you and / or your corporation into LOWSEC for mining operations? If not, would a D-Scan disruption module be enough to entice you to come into LOWSEC?

This was originally posted on http://highdrag.wordpress.com .

So what you want it something that simulates the benefits of a cloak, without negating your ability to profit during your immunity?

not only is this OP in k-space, it would be utterly broken in wormholes. at least in k-space you can see that there IS someone hidden there because :local:, but in WH's, D-scan is the only way to maintain situational/area awareness, and a module like this would allow fleets to be completely undetectable.


There should always be a tradeoff, and you just happened to highlight one. I'm sure the savy miner would be able to assess which threat was greater, a probing gang, or a random D-Scan pirate. Again, a deep space probe is a counter to D-scan disruption.

I suppose i hadnt thought of that. this would work in wormholes fine since we ALWAYS have probes out, 24/8/366.

still, nullbears will find a way to complain about it.

actually, new issue, lowsec pvp, wher eyou cant honestly expect someone to gimp their fit with a probe launcher, you would have pirates hanging out in the FW plex's, completely immune to 200km D-scan on the accel gate, and that would turn off alot of newer players from FW and several older ones, because it would basically be a massive nerf to solo pvp, since you would now be required to fit your ship with a probe (difficult on frigs and cruisers especially) or have someone in fleet to do it for you.
and i dont eman war targets, that would at elast be valid, but you wopuld have every pirate and daytripping blobbear hiding in them now with guaranteed kills on the way.

of course this woudl be fixed if CCP would just restrict PLEX's themselves to FW only (we have accel gates that have ship rstrictions,a dn others that require a key to enter, why not FW require a "Militia License" to enter?, but thats another arguement)