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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Separation of Faction Warfare

Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#61 - 2013-05-06 22:24:47 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

900,000 lp in a month at tier 2 is allot of plexing. I am surprised you never made it to the top of the daily or weekly vp list.

3 novice plexes per day waiting for fights. Carry on.



Thats 15 hours of plexing a month.

As for his killboard I am seeing allot of kills in gallente space. So it seems either his pvp and plexing time are seperate or he has to spend allot more time in plexes because defensive plexes don't pay that well. Or Crosi was just full of it when he said his lp earnings for last month. But I personally think he may be telling the truth. He is not allucard.

Carry on.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#62 - 2013-05-06 22:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

900,000 lp in a month at tier 2 is allot of plexing. I am surprised you never made it to the top of the daily or weekly vp list.

3 novice plexes per day waiting for fights. Carry on.
Thats 15 hours of plexing a month.

What's your point? He was paid to pvp. Eve Nirvana! (OK, not pvp but to gank noobs with his loki boosted Maulus - whatever. Sandbox and all that Big smile )

Reference:
Crosi wrote:
Also, the little plexing and pvp i have done over the last month has yielded 900,000 LP. I wasnt even trying. Thats 1.5 bn isk. Wont quite pay for my lost snake set but will easily keep people in ships. Working as intended. Working pretty well too.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#63 - 2013-05-06 22:32:25 UTC
cearain wrote:
So you just keep singing the praises of this imbalanced and stagnant system


the thing about this comment is our warzone is balanced the caldari can step upto same tier as us wenever they want.
The reason why the other warzone is imbalanced is that when amarrs do cashout they dont defend cos why do they need to there counting there isk then when the situation gets worse instead of trying to do something about it they just fire up there minnie alts and dogpile the situation then cry the systems broke
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#64 - 2013-05-06 22:45:20 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

900,000 lp in a month at tier 2 is allot of plexing. I am surprised you never made it to the top of the daily or weekly vp list.

3 novice plexes per day waiting for fights. Carry on.
Thats 15 hours of plexing a month.

What's your point? He was paid to pvp. Eve Nirvana! (OK, not pvp but to gank noobs with his loki boosted Maulus - whatever. Sandbox and all that Big smile )






You missed the part about his kills being mostly in gallente systems so it woudl takes more than 15 hours of novice plexes.

You crosi and I all know, that if you want pvp you don't sit around waiting for plexes to close. Just like you don't really stay to mine the astroids if you win a fight in the top belt of a system. If he did then he would likely be the top vp gainer for a day or a week.

I am not saying someone who was unemployed and had all day to play this game couldn't do it. But typically we see that if you want to really win sov for your militia your killboard that day will look like the killboards of people who win the most daily vp. When you look at those killboards you might see a few kills in a few minutes or hours of time from before or after they started plexing but thats about it. If your goal is to win sov then your best approach is to just avoid pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-05-06 22:51:50 UTC
First, under the "cash out" system, there was no side that was winning. There was just the side that most recently had their dump. The fact you call it the "cash out" system shows everything that was wrong with that system. The true reason why you see no one caring about tiers in the current system is because it truly only benefits the farmer. Yet the farmer won't part with his lp to upgrade a system.

If CCP wants people to care about tiers than it needs to give bonuses that pvpers care about. Maybe boosts to the owning militia. It should be harder to fight someone on their home turf.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#66 - 2013-05-06 22:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
ill tell you were i am on the tier system i think this is the fairest one but ive hated both,(they should be scrapped imo) its made people greedy cunts it should just be one rate for all side. lp for plexing is nice but really it shouldnbt be peoples main source of income missions should be but with gallentes rat imbalance we cant do them in a stealth bomber like all other races ............

Also i wouldnt call them ganks in a maulus those people are willing to fight it thinking ahh fk it its a maulus ill hammer it. It also does fk all dps and slowly chips away at people, its alot of manual piloting and alot of adjusting not like most frig fights which is burn in overheat everything and pray
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#67 - 2013-05-06 22:54:32 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
cearain wrote:
So you just keep singing the praises of this imbalanced and stagnant system


the thing about this comment is our warzone is balanced the caldari can step upto same tier as us wenever they want.
The reason why the other warzone is imbalanced is that when amarrs do cashout they dont defend cos why do they need to there counting there isk then when the situation gets worse instead of trying to do something about it they just fire up there minnie alts and dogpile the situation then cry the systems broke



Why should they care about who is winning a silly pve game?

But interestingly enough after the lp market bottomed out the amarr would be just as well simply stay in their pvp mains and not switch over to minmatar - if we still had a cashout system. When fw lp was still valued very high during inferno this was not the case. Because during the first 5 months of these changes lp conversion at tier 5 "now" was worth much more than lp at tier 5 "later."

But after the market stabilized amarr would realize that they might as well start running plexes in their pvp mains. The system just did not have time to settle in. And now it just makes more sense to earn your isk from the alt that brings in the most isk per hour. Running fw missions for minmatar at tier 4 pays allot better than sitting in your main running plexes at tier 1. So really why bother with all this plexing pve business at all?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#68 - 2013-05-06 22:55:02 UTC
Cearain wrote:
.....
I'm sorry I can't hear you over all the LP and fights I get every month...

playing FW as it's intended to be played.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#69 - 2013-05-06 22:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Amarr couldnt get there tiers during inferno and now with retribution alot of them were even vocal about having the minnie alts doing the work for them all those ontop of a very strong minmatar at the time just made there whole situation worse ,its a practice they havnt stopped and still do to this day.

During inferno most people had an alt in all 4 militias and just plexed with witchever one looked like getting the next high cashout.

You are bittered to the amarr way of things as ive suggested try other militias hear other storys and see the game in different ways
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#70 - 2013-05-06 23:03:49 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
First, under the "cash out" system, there was no side that was winning. There was just the side that most recently had their dump. The fact you call it the "cash out" system shows everything that was wrong with that system. .


Some people expressed that view I disagree. I think working toward a tier 5 cashout was a very good medium term goal for faction war militias. It got a bad rap from allot of short sighted players. But it provided balance, consequences, strategy and excitement all in one.

Shahai Shintaro wrote:
The true reason why you see no one caring about tiers in the current system is because it truly only benefits the farmer. Yet the farmer won't part with his lp to upgrade a system.

If CCP wants people to care about tiers than it needs to give bonuses that pvpers care about. Maybe boosts to the owning militia. It should be harder to fight someone on their home turf.


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#71 - 2013-05-06 23:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.


They wasnt stratigically planning it from a war perspective, it was a just to get paid perspective it meant something to wallets not to fights.
this was evident in how many alliances and corps dropped fw like bricks at the changes and then some creeped back in when they realised it could still be farmed.

Also the minnie strategy was mainly farm it till everyone had a fk ton of lp then flip or dump it was commen knowledge minnies dumped on a sunday every two weeks to try and maximise people being online so everyone gets to cash out so dint take much talking and working on a plan

I dont get in some posts you say you hate rabbit but in others you stick up for a system that was definatly more farmer friendly
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#72 - 2013-05-06 23:27:25 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.


They wasnt stratigically planning it from a war perspective, it was a just to get paid perspective it meant something to wallets not to fights.
this was evident in how many alliances and corps dropped fw like bricks at the changes and then some creeped back in when they realised it could still be farmed.

Also there was no strategy it was mainly farm it till everyone had a fk ton of lp then flip or dump it was commen knowledge minnies dumped on a sunday every two weeks to try and maximise people being online so everyone gets to cash out

I dont get in some posts you say you hate rabbit but in others you stick up for a system that was definatly more farmer friendly



There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.

Neither the general cashout nor the current lp pay out system is really more or less farmer friendly. The changes that made the current situation less farmer friendly were:

1) requiring rats to be killed
2) generally reducing the pay outs
and
3) the lp market crashed.

Both 1 and 2 could have been done with the cashout system. Like I said they should have reduced tier 5 to be a 50-60% reduction instead of the 75% reduction.

3, the lp crash, was gonna happen anyway. Even if they started with this payout system the lp would crash. Market forces will bring the value of lp in line with its difficulty to obtain. If they gave 10xs as much lp in the current system the lp market would crash even further, capped at the cost of the other required items.

Its not the cashout pay out method per se that caused the market to crash. It was the crazy high rewards given. But after the lp market hits a baseline the cashout system would have worked much better than the current system. They changed it before it hit that baseline.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#73 - 2013-05-06 23:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.


They wasnt stratigically planning it from a war perspective, it was a just to get paid perspective it meant something to wallets not to fights.
this was evident in how many alliances and corps dropped fw like bricks at the changes and then some creeped back in when they realised it could still be farmed.

Also there was no strategy it was mainly farm it till everyone had a fk ton of lp then flip or dump it was commen knowledge minnies dumped on a sunday every two weeks to try and maximise people being online so everyone gets to cash out

I dont get in some posts you say you hate rabbit but in others you stick up for a system that was definatly more farmer friendly



There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.

Neither the general cashout nor the current lp pay out system is really more or less farmer friendly. The changes that made the current situation less farmer friendly were:

1) requiring rats to be killed
2) generally reducing the pay outs
and
3) the lp market crashed.

Both 1 and 2 could have been done with the cashout system. Like I said they should have reduced tier 5 to be a 50-60% reduction instead of the 75% reduction.

3, the lp crash, was gonna happen anyway. Even if they started with this payout system the lp would crash. Market forces will bring the value of lp in line with its difficulty to obtain. If they gave 10xs as much lp in the current system the lp market would crash even further, capped at the cost of the other required items.

Its not the cashout pay out method per se that caused the market to crash. It was the crazy high rewards given. But after the lp market hits a baseline the cashout system would have worked much better than the current system. They changed it before it hit that baseline.



It shouldnt have any reduction why should the fw lp store ride rough shod over every other lp store in the game if the other stores require more grind using level 5s as an example that have to be run in a carrier or a dps ship and logi?
CCP actually see fw as a staring block to bigger things then why should a 3 day alt or a stealth bomber pilot earn more than a carrier pilot thats been training his toon and building up standings to run those missions. All i see is you looking at it from a lining your own pockets perspective
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2013-05-06 23:37:28 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.


They wasnt stratigically planning it from a war perspective, it was a just to get paid perspective it meant something to wallets not to fights.
this was evident in how many alliances and corps dropped fw like bricks at the changes and then some creeped back in when they realised it could still be farmed.

Also there was no strategy it was mainly farm it till everyone had a fk ton of lp then flip or dump it was commen knowledge minnies dumped on a sunday every two weeks to try and maximise people being online so everyone gets to cash out

I dont get in some posts you say you hate rabbit but in others you stick up for a system that was definatly more farmer friendly



There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.

Neither the general cashout nor the current lp pay out system is really more or less farmer friendly. The changes that made the current situation less farmer friendly were:

1) requiring rats to be killed
2) generally reducing the pay outs
and
3) the lp market crashed.

Both 1 and 2 could have been done with the cashout system. Like I said they should have reduced tier 5 to be a 50-60% reduction instead of the 75% reduction.

3, the lp crash, was gonna happen anyway. Even if they started with this payout system the lp would crash. Market forces will bring the value of lp in line with its difficulty to obtain. If they gave 10xs as much lp in the current system the lp market would crash even further, capped at the cost of the other required items.

Its not the cashout pay out method per se that caused the market to crash. It was the crazy high rewards given. But after the lp market hits a baseline the cashout system would have worked much better than the current system. They changed it before it hit that baseline.



It shouldnt have any reduction why should the fw lp store ride rough shod over every other lp store in the game if the other stores require more grind using level 5s as an example that have to be run in a carrier or a dps ship and logi?


The current system also runs rough shod over every other lp store by giving multiple times as much lp. Cutting the lp price in half or giving 2xs as much lp for the same activity has the same effect.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#75 - 2013-05-06 23:37:57 UTC
Cearain wrote:
There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.
How many hours did you personally spend busting IHUBS for the Amarr during this time?

I'm having a hard time believing a guy like you who "believes that FW sov should be a pvp mechanic" and who thinks "15 hours per month is a long time" would bother with spending 2-3 days flipping massive numbers of IHUBS to get to Tier V. I suspect that you let Nulli Secunda to all the hard work for you.

The rest of us who actually put in the time flipping these IHUBS (and I didn't spend nearly as much time at it as some of our guys), laugh at you for being a proponent of one of the most soul-sucking torture activities ever implemented by CCP.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#76 - 2013-05-06 23:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


With the cashout system, there were no pvp benefits yet everyone was talking about it and strategizing how to achieve them. It was just a more exciting system. Uttering "meh" is about all that can be said about the new forever grind system.


They wasnt stratigically planning it from a war perspective, it was a just to get paid perspective it meant something to wallets not to fights.
this was evident in how many alliances and corps dropped fw like bricks at the changes and then some creeped back in when they realised it could still be farmed.

Also there was no strategy it was mainly farm it till everyone had a fk ton of lp then flip or dump it was commen knowledge minnies dumped on a sunday every two weeks to try and maximise people being online so everyone gets to cash out

I dont get in some posts you say you hate rabbit but in others you stick up for a system that was definatly more farmer friendly



There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.

Neither the general cashout nor the current lp pay out system is really more or less farmer friendly. The changes that made the current situation less farmer friendly were:

1) requiring rats to be killed
2) generally reducing the pay outs
and
3) the lp market crashed.

Both 1 and 2 could have been done with the cashout system. Like I said they should have reduced tier 5 to be a 50-60% reduction instead of the 75% reduction.

3, the lp crash, was gonna happen anyway. Even if they started with this payout system the lp would crash. Market forces will bring the value of lp in line with its difficulty to obtain. If they gave 10xs as much lp in the current system the lp market would crash even further, capped at the cost of the other required items.

Its not the cashout pay out method per se that caused the market to crash. It was the crazy high rewards given. But after the lp market hits a baseline the cashout system would have worked much better than the current system. They changed it before it hit that baseline.



It shouldnt have any reduction why should the fw lp store ride rough shod over every other lp store in the game if the other stores require more grind using level 5s as an example that have to be run in a carrier or a dps ship and logi?


The current system also runs rough shod over every other lp store by giving multiple times as much lp. Cutting the lp price in half or giving 2xs as much lp for the same activity has the same effect.


But market prices have risen in other warzones and for other races a amarr level 5 runner can earn alot of isk from his lps at the minute. The only prices that i see are bust atm are minmatar from such a prolonged period of higher tiers... inferno and retribution... hell i still have 2m lps from when i was in minmatar space im not even thinking of cashing them till the navy canes to give to corp cos eveything else apart from implants are broke

Also what XG said Blink
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#77 - 2013-05-07 02:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
One:
All LP is earned at a second tier level for all militias. Unleash the market for balance.

Two:
The tier a militia is at is only determined by the number of systems in the warzone that militia controls. 20.1%? You are tier two. 40.1%? You are tier 3. Etc.

Three:
Buy IHub upgrades to better your system. These would be a mixture of military or economic benefits that would be available at different tiers. Station lockout for enemy militia? Tier one upgrade. Reduced clone cost, research slots, or manufacturing boots? Tier one with the choice of upgrading the benefit with each subsequent tier. Other upgrade ideas could include:

Timer rollbacks on abandoned plexes.
Defensive plexing LP for that system only.
Notifications for Cerain.
Activation of mission agents if present in system.
More friendly NPC's in plexes or slower plex spawns. (Only available at low tiers)
Sentry guns on IHub.
Station lockouts for WT. (tier 4 or 5. WT are not the same as enemy militia)
Moon or PI production upgrades.
Anomaly or rat upgrades.

Add any other upgrades you might think of here. As CCP adds things like Ice anomalies or tags for sec status new upgrades could be introduced as well.

Four:
The upgrades can be destroyed only by system conquest or directly by the opposing militia. Tired of stealth bomber mission runners? Get a fleet together and go shoot up Dal/Eszur.

Honestly a monkey could have created a better system them the steaming pile of crap we have now. It unfortunately is based upon the process of capturing systems rather then cultivating them after ownership is attained. Good job CCP!
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-05-07 07:23:34 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
One:
All LP is earned at a second tier level for all militias. Unleash the market for balance.

Two:
The tier a militia is at is only determined by the number of systems in the warzone that militia controls. 20.1%? You are tier two. 40.1%? You are tier 3. Etc.

Three:
Buy IHub upgrades to better your system. These would be a mixture of military or economic benefits that would be available at different tiers. Station lockout for enemy militia? Tier one upgrade. Reduced clone cost, research slots, or manufacturing boots? Tier one with the choice of upgrading the benefit with each subsequent tier. Other upgrade ideas could include:

Timer rollbacks on abandoned plexes.
Defensive plexing LP for that system only.
Notifications for Cerain.
Activation of mission agents if present in system.
More friendly NPC's in plexes or slower plex spawns. (Only available at low tiers)
Sentry guns on IHub.
Station lockouts for WT. (tier 4 or 5. WT are not the same as enemy militia)
Moon or PI production upgrades.
Anomaly or rat upgrades.

Add any other upgrades you might think of here. As CCP adds things like Ice anomalies or tags for sec status new upgrades could be introduced as well.

Four:
The upgrades can be destroyed only by system conquest or directly by the opposing militia. Tired of stealth bomber mission runners? Get a fleet together and go shoot up Dal/Eszur.

Honestly a monkey could have created a better system them the steaming pile of crap we have now. It unfortunately is based upon the process of capturing systems rather then cultivating them after ownership is attained. Good job CCP!


+1 FOR ZARNAK!!!!
ZARNAK!! ZARNAK!!! ZARNAK!!!!
CCP is a bunch of monkeys :P

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-05-07 08:00:54 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
There was strategic planning involved with hitting higher tiers.
How many hours did you personally spend busting IHUBS for the Amarr during this time?
I suspect that you let Nulli Secunda to all the hard work for you.
.


He did.

I have never seen him in a plex, busting a bunker nor in any of the highlevel intel channels doing any 'stratigic planning'. So unless he is using another alt that I don't know of....

And frankly I'm tired of him turning every FW thread into a novel by replying EVERYONE in the thread regardless of wither or not they were talking to him to begin with using 4 paragraph long posts. Nothing kills a thread like Cearain.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2013-05-07 08:27:21 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
...Sentry guns on IHub..

Creating incentive for 'da blob' or Dread drops just to get rid of bombers .. seems a rather high price to pay Smile Remove the iHub system entirely, EHP grinds that are not directly pew related has no place in a face-stab game like Eve. Surely there are tools and/or resources to cook an alternative up that encourages stabbing instead of the opposite .. I see the introduction of reinforcement timers and EHP grinds as what was available at the time and their continuation as a sign of excessive laziness (or fear of players) on Devs part.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Honestly a monkey could have created a better system them the steaming pile of crap we have now. It unfortunately is based upon the process of capturing systems rather then cultivating them after ownership is attained. Good job CCP!

How else could they have done it when the goal was to create a farm without impacting on their beer-time? Lol

One of the first posts after the FF presentation last year and the concept of system upgrade paths was a plea to make conquered space matter more than the act of conquering it .. no idea why they went the route they did, makes zero sense which is why there must have interests beyond what is known/seen that influenced it.