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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2013-05-06 20:05:56 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.


Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#82 - 2013-05-06 20:06:48 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime.

This will likely trump the EULA in the courts, doubly so as the servers are based out of London. The Bill is intended to increase consumer protection by nullifying such anti consumer practices.



I'd like to see the bill before we even try to argue it and claim what it trumphs.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#83 - 2013-05-06 20:07:13 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game, Sorry if I derailed your discussion.

Not a problem it does have things to do with games though, Simcity was launched and was barely playable with no possibility of refunds, its a law primarily aimed at that but which could be applied to any MMORPG which includes Eve.

And Internet lawyers, yea this is all speculation as we said many, many times throughout.

Kind of curious, where are you from?

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Adunh Slavy
#84 - 2013-05-06 20:10:40 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
In the Queens speech today ...



Guess the Queen tried SimCity 2013 too.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-05-06 20:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The sale takes place in the UK even when on the internet and if something happens like what happened last year to several high profile games in the future we have the right to demand our money back. EA could be in for some bother.


Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them?

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
These kinds of laws are just silly on all sorts of levels. Define "freeze" for one. Sounds easy, but, there's so many different reasons for "freeze"...driver conflict, overheating, old code, bad API calls... Now, by freeze, do they just mean the game locking up, or whole system? How do I prove, as a consumer, the game code itself locked? How can I verify that the network path between myself and the servers are perfectly fine, and it's not ISP shenanigans (Trust me, no ISP in the world is going to open themselves to that legal problem).


My point exactly, not mastering the english language enough, but this was my point :). Also, prove all this from a legal perspective.

000Hunter000 wrote:

National laws> Eve Eula


How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.


IANAL but the way it works in the states is that place of sale is considered to be where the consumer is. Technically in most states you are suppose to pay sales tax for foreign goods and services. If the website or service does not do this, you as a consumer are supposed to report it on your state taxes (though most people I'm sure do not) which is why they are passing internet sales tax laws which a part of me wonders if EVE will get applied to.

I think its suppose to apply to products shipped to your state, but I have a feeling states will want to get their hands on Steam sales and MMO profits if at all possible.

Still that really doesn't have anything to do with the UK, but at least here it is considered that the place of sale takes place in the buyer's home state and not in the country where the service originated.

So I think the same thing can apply to the UK.

IANAL but here in the states (in places where the laws are nice for lawsuits... say Texas) you can drag any company into small claims court for cases under thousands of dollars (say for a couple of hundred). It has been known that people will bring a case against a large company who doesn't bother sending a lawyer in response, but the judge will award damages towards the plantiff, but at that point it is rather a crap shoot whether or not the company will get around to paying you. Some companies actually appeal just for spite and others give in since it doesnt' matter.

If you google "win small claims court against at&t" you get information about what I know to be about small claims against the phone giant att. People do win those on occasion.

I am not a lawyer and this was not legal advice.

[edit]

Almost forgot to reply to your last statement. Governments force foreign businesses to do what they want all the time. France has drug Google to court quite a bit and forces Ebay to remove swastikas from their sales. UK also has brought Google to court. Eventually if the business wants to do business in a country they have to play ball.

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#86 - 2013-05-06 20:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Malcanis wrote:
Any word on car manufacturers giving refunds if the vehicle can't reach the advertised speed - regardless of traffic conditions?



C'mon get with the spirit of things. Everybody has a right to be a big fat spoiled baby and nitpick every little thing about everything. Every legal document and ULA will need to be 1000 pages long to cover every little thing to entire careers can be based on finding that one vague sentence and convincing 12 tards in a jury box that it means what you say it is.

I am certain that every loss will be all about this, in Metagaming.. uh... Eve Online.

England, showing the way to DERP.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-05-06 20:18:08 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Not a problem it does have things to do with games though

Nothing new, it seems every particular issue a brit encounters should apply to ALL games from ALL over the Earth
[/quote]
Kirjava wrote:
Simcity was launched and was barely playable with no possibility of refunds, its a law primarily aimed at that but which could be applied to any MMORPG which includes Eve.

based on my previous comment on this post, does generalization seems reasonable to you?

Kirjava wrote:
Kind of curious, where are you from?

Irrelevant :) why so curious though?
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#88 - 2013-05-06 20:19:42 UTC
Hessian Arcturus wrote:
CCP aren't a British company, but it could be interesting to see what happens in regards to enforcing that...

Given the non-specific language of the New Zealand Consumer Guarantees Act, I have to wonder why other countries also didn't use non-specific language as well. It would certainly save them having to enact new consumer law every time that a new thing came along instead of merely updating the definitions of what constitutes Goods and Services.

Quote:
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.


basically everyone has agreed to use iceland law in a contract


Not everyone. The New Zealand Consumer Guarantees Act has a section that specifically deals with that, basically stating that it cannot be contracted out of. P
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-05-06 20:21:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.

If my company is based in let's say Poland, how will your UK law affect me?
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-05-06 20:25:52 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game.


Sure, that's even easier - this bill will not affect the way Eve-Online runs in any, way, shape or form.

If CCP start doing stuff on TQ that is illegal in the UK, then that's an entirely different matter and laws. Currently this law will have zero influence on CCP and how they run their company.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#91 - 2013-05-06 20:26:17 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.

If my company is based in let's say Poland, how will your UK law affect me?



Since Poland is in the EU, your company might well be compelled to follow UK law when trading in the UK.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-05-06 20:27:03 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.

If my company is based in let's say Poland, how will your UK law affect me?


Any of your UK operations would be subject to UK law.

Any of the Polish operations would be subject to Polish law.

It's really that simple.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#93 - 2013-05-06 20:28:06 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:

Nothing new, it seems every particular issue a brit encounters should apply to ALL games from ALL over the Earth

Well you can't legistalte against a single country, its all or nothing. Besides I don't think that many of the MP's play games but I could be wrong.

Mina Kizen wrote:
Irrelevant :) why so curious though?

Just curious, I don't think English is your first language and unfamiliarity with the EU says you aren't from Europe I think....

Usually good at picking these things up quickly. What?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2013-05-06 20:30:10 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.

If my company is based in let's say Poland, how will your UK law affect me?


Same way it affects every other company from any other nation.

If you sell goods in the uk you abide by our consumer laws.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-05-06 20:31:53 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game.


Sure, that's even easier - this bill will not affect the way Eve-Online runs in any, way, shape or form.

If CCP start doing stuff on TQ that is illegal in the UK, then that's an entirely different matter and laws. Currently this law will have zero influence on CCP and how they run their company.


The funny thing about laws... Especially ones from a country that has been around for hundreds of years... Is that there are so many of them, that is is basically impossible to go about your daily life without breaking one.

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rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-05-06 20:38:05 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
rofflesausage wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game.


Sure, that's even easier - this bill will not affect the way Eve-Online runs in any, way, shape or form.

If CCP start doing stuff on TQ that is illegal in the UK, then that's an entirely different matter and laws. Currently this law will have zero influence on CCP and how they run their company.


The funny thing about laws... Especially ones from a country that has been around for hundreds of years... Is that there are so many of them, that is is basically impossible to go about your daily life without breaking one.


In the UK - Under the Salmon Act of 1986, it was made ‘illegal to handle salmon under suspicious circumstances’.

Could you just imagine the circumstances that would be needed for a police offer to quote that one? No, me neither.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-05-06 20:38:21 UTC
Kirjava wrote:

Just curious, I don't think English is your first language and unfamiliarity with the EU says you aren't from Europe I think....

Usually good at picking these things up quickly. What?

I am from the EU, and as I stated earlier, english language is not my first language :)
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-05-06 20:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
rofflesausage wrote:

Any of your UK operations would be subject to UK law.

Any of the Polish operations would be subject to Polish law.

It's really that simple.


I dont have any operation in the UK, I'm selling an item on the internet, let's say nails Big smile, just like CCP who's selling a service (access to its servers). Again, how will your UK law affect me?
Kirjava wrote:

Just curious, I don't think English is your first language and unfamiliarity with the EU says you aren't from Europe I think....

Usually good at picking these things up quickly. What?

I am from the EU, and as I stated earlier, english language is not my first language :)
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-05-06 20:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
baltec1 wrote:


Same way it affects every other company from any other nation.

If you sell goods in the uk you abide by our consumer laws.


No, it doesnt affect me. I dont sell goods in the UK, I sell goods (physical items or services) on the internet. Responsibility to obey the laws is yours, as a customer, not the provider's
You, the british customer are subject to your local laws.
If you disagree, please point me in the right direction, I'm a Polish (totally random, I assure you, its just an example) company who sold you goods.
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-05-06 20:44:32 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:

I dont have any operation in the UK, I'm selling an item on the internet, let's say nails Big smile,


As long as nails were legal in the UK, then there would be no issue.

If nails were legal in Poland but illegal in the UK, when they entered the UK they would be subject to UK laws. This could mean confiscation, destruction, fines if they could prove who brought it and so on....

I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.