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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-05-06 18:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
baltec1 wrote:
The sale takes place in the UK even when on the internet and if something happens like what happened last year to several high profile games in the future we have the right to demand our money back. EA could be in for some bother.


Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them?

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
These kinds of laws are just silly on all sorts of levels. Define "freeze" for one. Sounds easy, but, there's so many different reasons for "freeze"...driver conflict, overheating, old code, bad API calls... Now, by freeze, do they just mean the game locking up, or whole system? How do I prove, as a consumer, the game code itself locked? How can I verify that the network path between myself and the servers are perfectly fine, and it's not ISP shenanigans (Trust me, no ISP in the world is going to open themselves to that legal problem).


My point exactly, not mastering the english language enough, but this was my point :). Also, prove all this from a legal perspective.

000Hunter000 wrote:

National laws> Eve Eula


How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#62 - 2013-05-06 19:03:25 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:


How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.

Iceland is applying to join a Trade Block *** supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies. Consumer rights must be respeced in the member states with regards to each other within the trade block. Iceland would be on the hook for its corporate entities within the EU, as would every other state be on the hook for customers of its corporations in other member states. The EU also acts as a trade block in the WTO, arguable being the dominant power in global regulation and standards.

The EU is about the size of the combined USA and Canada, and the UK is the second or third most powerful state in the EU depending on your perspective on France.

Theoretically that's how, its speculation and the UK has a veto on Icelandic membership.

Also I am not in favour of the UK doing this, but it has done before and it will if it thinks it needs to.

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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-05-06 19:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
Kirjava wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:


How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.

Iceland is applying to join a Trade Block *** supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies. Consumer rights must be respeced in the member states with regards to each other within the trade block. Iceland would be on the hook for its corporate entities within the EU, as would every other state be on the hook for customers of its corporations in other member states. The EU also acts as a trade block in the WTO, arguable being the dominant power in global regulation and standards.

The EU is about the size of the combined USA and Canada, and the UK is the second or third most powerful state in the EU depending on your perspective on France.

Theoretically that's how, its speculation and the UK has a veto on Icelandic membership.

Also I am not in favour of the UK doing this, but it has done before and it will if it thinks it needs to.


I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#64 - 2013-05-06 19:19:23 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:

I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please?

Its ridiculously complicated, and again this is all speculation.

I don't think there's a single establishing trade body, but the most current treaty is the Lisbon Treaty of 2007. The Eu was founded by the Treaty of Rome in 1957.

Sorry about the language earlier, was in a rush to be as detailed as I could to get to the core point. Oops

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Othran
Route One
#65 - 2013-05-06 19:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Mina Kizen wrote:

I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please?


Its called the "Euro", is run in Gemany's economic interests and that's why 70% of under 25 year-old people in Spain/Greece are never going to have a job in their own country.

Germany gets to break all the fiscal rules in 2003 and nobody says anything; Italy gets a new govt imposed on it by Germany as does Greece when they do the same in 2010.

Oh and the "president" of the EU/Euro group is a Portuguese Maoist (Barroso).

Pretty much all you need to know about the EU Blink
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#66 - 2013-05-06 19:27:30 UTC
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.


You've never dealt with lawyers have you? The EULA will mean nothing to them....Lol

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-05-06 19:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
Othran wrote:
stuff :)
that's why 70% of under 25 year-old people in Spain/Greece are never going to scroll up to see the whole post

I'm under 21 and I wanted to learn more, thanks for the clarification ^^
BTW, edited your quote

Now I have a vaguely general idea of the stuff OP posted, thanks everyone for contributing,
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#68 - 2013-05-06 19:32:58 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
In the Queens speech today there was an announcement of a bill to protect consumers of digital goods and services, in the same way as physical goods rolling them into the same law. As this effects Eve in many respects, I think this is something the British player base would be interested to see CCP's position on.

Guardian wrote:
• An updating of the law to give greater protection to consumers who download films, music and games – a £1bn industry. The bill will make clear that a consumer must receive a refund if an online game freezes or if a film stream is unwatchable even if the broadband connection is fine.


What with lag being endemic to Eve and other games, but thankfully its effects reduced by such as Time Dilation, what would fall under the purview of this law is uncertain. However to speculate, node crashes and boot.ini would be under such a bill. As would Error 37 and Simcity, but thats another story.

Article is here.

Posted in General Discussion as it is Discussion of an Eve related article and its consequences.


Absolute bollocks.
Hessian Arcturus
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-05-06 19:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Hessian Arcturus
CCP aren't a British company, but it could be interesting to see what happens in regards to enforcing that...

It's human nature to want to explore. To find your line and go beyond it. The only limit, is the one you set yourself.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2013-05-06 19:38:05 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:


Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them?



You sold it to a UK citizen in the UK. The sale was in the uk and as such uk consumer laws apply.

Private sales however are not protected.
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
#71 - 2013-05-06 19:40:19 UTC
Internet Lawyers, dont you just love them......

Seriously, half the problems with Disconnects etc are the ISP, I know my mums area she gets 117KB/s, on boardband, BT fob her off with the usual BS about split bandwidth, etc, the reality is its thier Infrastructure thats the problem.

I've tried playing eve when there and at times its unplayable, this isnt a fault of EVE, CCP or anyone but BT.

Therefore why would I sue CCP for a problem that is out of thier control.

In a court of law I suspect that CCP would simply pull up the network traffic for the UK, and show that a limited number of people were affected at the time or that it was an ISP provider issue and thus they would not be liable, and they have produced best endeavours to ensure a fit for purpose solution.

If it appears that it was down to a switch issue at the data center that would be a different issue.

In terms of compensation they would only really be asked to recompense you for 'lost' time.

So it is really worth hiring a lawyer and Barrister that will cost a fortun to recover £100-200, not to mention the pressure it would put on CCP to keep reserves thus preventing development of new features.
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#72 - 2013-05-06 19:41:37 UTC
The reason why thats absolute bollocks is depending on who the law is written, what test cases its used against.

You can't make any comment on anything from the Guardian as they are nearly as moronic as the Sun.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#73 - 2013-05-06 19:42:32 UTC
The only thing the world needs less than more unenforceable laws on the books is more wanna be internet lawyers discussing them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-05-06 19:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: rofflesausage
Mina Kizen wrote:

How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.


Tranquillity is hosted in London, UK. If a company from abroad runs servers in the UK and they are committing actions against UK law, they could just pull the plug on TQ.

Not will this will happen. Ever. Because it's not relevant to what's being discussed. The internet lawyers in this thread are hilarious.

What this bill helps with is rather specific: When people have issues accessing digital content that has been purchased.

Take for example a one time 'rental' of a film. The server lags out / internet congestion / your broadband dies - I've seen loads of people be locked out of watching the film at this point, or only being allowed to continue watching it from where the server thinks the person has been up to. That's nonsense and it's what part of this bill sets out to tackle.

The SLA is an entirely different matter.

edit - you also need to keep in mind that even SLA stuff would only ever cause problems for a company if they didn't sort their customers out as a result of any issues. The only question a court is going to ask is "Was the company response fair?".

If TQ went down for 7 days unannounced, but CCP gave you 7 (or more) days back - how far do you think you're going to get? Suing for 'enjoyment lost'? Given that CCP are an extremely fair company - one of the best in my experience, I'm unsure why people seem to think this is going to cause any issues.
cpu939
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#75 - 2013-05-06 19:47:41 UTC
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.


basically everyone has agreed to use iceland law in a contract
Andrea Griffin
#76 - 2013-05-06 19:51:31 UTC
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#77 - 2013-05-06 19:56:25 UTC
A lot of bluster and blather in here.

But let's be realistic.

Without knowing the letter of the law, I can take a guess as to the spirit of it. It's not there to punish games for having lag and only in America with its glut of lawyers and entitled, litigious population would that happen. I'd suggest it's for things like streaming media that has more down time than up time. Or an FTP that you paid for but can never access.

The morons that do try to sue over intermittent lag will be laughed out of court and the plaintiff will be on the hook for a bundle of legal bills.

Mr Epeen Cool
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-05-06 20:00:29 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.


It means that anything that's being run in the UK is subject to UK law. Nothing more.

If it was illegal to distribute images of bronies in the UK (and my god, it should be) then TQ wouldn't be able to host and distribute images of a bronies as a result.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-05-06 20:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
rofflesausage wrote:

Tranquillity is hosted in London, UK. If a company FROM ABROAD runs servers in the UK it means a FOREIGN company runs some servers in the UK, no less, no morel

Andrea Griffin wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.

This was my question, only couple of the several dozens visitors of this thread answered it. You were not among them, rofflesausage. sorry.

rofflesausage wrote:
What this bill helps with is rather specific: When people have issues accessing digital content that has been purchased.{/quote]Purchased from where? How does your UK LOCAL/NATIONAL law affects another country?

[quote=rofflesausageTake for example a one time 'rental' of a film.
I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game, Sorry if I derailed your discussion.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#80 - 2013-05-06 20:05:23 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.

Iceland's relationship with the EU is akin to Puerto Rico's relationship with the USA at this point in time. Its complicated, they are associated with the legal infrastructure from the EU in Brussels through the European Free Trade Area, and are applying for membership status (statehood) to get the Euro currency to replace the Icelandic Krona (ISK) which nearly collapsed in 2008 from the ongoing financial crisis.

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