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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#21 - 2013-05-06 16:57:12 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Node crashes? Really? The law is going to make them vanish? Or apply punative liability to stochastic events? That is hardly going to pass the real-world 'smell' test.

Aye, its speculative and pretty much until it comes to the UK courts all debate would be speculation (how our legal system works unfortunately). The intent would be to apply the stick to service providers to better maintain/upgrade infrastructure as needed (as is the recent case with Simcity).

And this is the House of Commons, they are not the most technically minded lot and I wouldn't be too surprised if this passed due to their lack of technical understanding and differentiation between physical and digital services.

While this is speculative, and CCP has taken massive strides in stability and uptime since I started in 2004, this is a proposed new law that could be binding if the servers go down. I don't know how in depth the definition of uptime would be, from total server crash to Jita lagging out, just enough that its worthwhile putting the article up for debate.

Its also being introduced in the country where the physical servers are, and the UK is not exactly on the best of terms with Iceland after the banking crash...

So you're saying that many MPs would have a hard time recognizing a stochastic event if they tripped over it? Lol

There'a a very easy way to shut this law down. A pre-sale notification and disclaimer of reliability and acceptance of the service 'as is' by the various media and game providers. For those whom are already subscribed, a 'condition of continued service' agreement that serves the same function - agree to the terms or 'have a nice day; your subscription is terminated.'

Whilst not entirely enforcable in all jurisdictions, such practice should be effective enough to kill the law (should it ever become law).

Yeah - Now *I'm* the one speculating. P

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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#22 - 2013-05-06 16:57:35 UTC
In before CCP cuts off access to EVE from IPs originating in the UK =P

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#23 - 2013-05-06 16:59:27 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
This will likely trump the EULA in the courts.

It would mark the end of online gaming in Britain if it does.

Oh god.
Othran
Route One
#24 - 2013-05-06 17:00:11 UTC
Don't worry about it, this is the UK and we have no end of nonsense laws. Last govt introduced 3000 more criminal offences and nobody but the most anal of solicitors (lawyers) has any idea of more than half of those.

Nobody cares and there won't be any sort of enforcement as there will be no budget to do so.

God help all us poor sods in the UK if they ever do get the budget to enforce the laws.

Forget about it, this was originally aimed at phone apps and as is always the case in the UK has descended into total bollox in terms of being any way manageable in (real day to day) law.
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#25 - 2013-05-06 17:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kharamete
Tippia wrote:
Oh sure. They'll pay you back the €.02 that an hour of downtime has cost you. Doing so will require them to charge you €3.99 in handling fees, though.

Farley genocent wrote:
as I am aware the EULA is an 'after sales contract' and isn't 100% enforceable
Nope. You have to agree with it before you're allowed to create an account — long before you've even begun to touch the “sales” part. It's as pre-sales as they come, and yes, they could probably point to it as an SLA you've agreed with as far as both expected and unexpected downtime goes.


No, I'm not so sure. That isn't European law tradition. Maybe it's American law, but it isn't European law.

In Europe there are varying degrees of consumer protections that you can not sign away in contracts. If you do, the contracts are voided. That American firms continue to service customers despite this is because it hasn't been tested thoroughly in court. When it has been, such as in the Oracle case, the Court of Justice of the European Union has come down clearly and hard on the consumer protection side.

It comes up as side-issues in other cases, such as the Oracle case. It hasn't been tested on its own. However, these cases can be used as guidance to see how a CoJ ruling probably would look like. In the case of Oracle and digital downloads, the Eulas were touched on in passing thus:

Quote:
Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy. Therefore, even if the licence prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy

Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of
computer programs (OJ 2009 L 111, p. 16).

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2013-05-06 17:02:02 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
There'a a very easy way to shut this law down. A pre-sale notification and disclaimer of reliability and acceptance of the service 'as is' by the various media and game providers. For those whom are already subscribed, a 'condition of continued service' agreement that serves the same function - agree to the terms or 'have a nice day; your subscription is terminated.'

Whilst not entirely enforcable in all jurisdictions, such practice should be effective enough to kill the law (should it ever become law).
…meaning EVE has already inoculated itself against these kinds of nuisance claims.
Black Panpher
CastleKickers
Rote Kapelle
#27 - 2013-05-06 17:03:09 UTC
The 2012 HD fanfest stream was breaking all the freaking time (for everyone not just my ISP).
CCP small print on said streaming page stated no one was entitled to a refund if the stream didn't work which is BS.

I think the bill is good for **** moves like this.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#28 - 2013-05-06 17:03:38 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
This will likely trump the EULA in the courts.

It would mark the end of online gaming in Britain if it does.

In my field, much of the Eurocode standards are copy pastes of the British ones because they had the best reliability records.
British laws have a habit of becoming the EU standard more often that is currently thought.... the EU is the largest economy on the planet, Microsoft vs EU for instance.

And yea, speculation, but we all know its speculation right?

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Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#29 - 2013-05-06 17:05:19 UTC
Meh, I would expect that they would be more interested in dealing with the "No, we totally dont throttle your connection if you are gaming during peak hours" ISPs first....

But then that might upset some friends of theirs

*tinfoil hat*


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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-05-06 17:13:57 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
This will likely trump the EULA in the courts.

It would mark the end of online gaming in Britain if it does.

In my field, much of the Eurocode standards are copy pastes of the British ones because they had the best reliability records.
British laws have a habit of becoming the EU standard more often that is currently thought.... the EU is the largest economy on the planet, Microsoft vs EU for instance.

And yea, speculation, but we all know its speculation right?



"Thank you for purchasing 30 days of gametime for EVE! Please be aware that depending on player actions in game, your game experience may vary in specific locations within the game. This may lead to slower game performance or even inability to function in those specific areas. Due to the open, unscripted nature of EVE, these events may be beyond CCPs ability to control, although of course we are committed to doing our very best to give the most satisfactory game experience for you in EVE Online.

I understand and accept this condition of play. Please give me my 30 days of gametime [ ]

I do not accept this condition of play. Cancel my payment and do not give me 30 days of gametime [ ]"

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Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#31 - 2013-05-06 17:14:13 UTC
This is just stupid :|

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Prince Kobol
#32 - 2013-05-06 17:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Ari Laveran wrote:
Another example of lawmakers not understanding that which they are legislating. bollocks.


Another example of a forum warrior not understanding legislation...

This bill actually might do some good and make some companies think for a second before promising the world and rolling out a product which is unusable.

In relation to on-line games, the only time I could see this legislation possibly being used is if an on-line game was inaccessible or unplayable for a prolonged period of time or not offering a number of services which was promised.

So for example you are paying x amount per month for a service and that company has been unable to provide that service for a unreasonable amount of time then you might be able to claim some of your money back.

Lets say a update is released to your favourite MMO which then leaves a large number of the player base experiencing problems which makes the game unplayable.

The Developers refuse to admit that the problem is with the game but with your PC which you knows is bollocks. Months go by with you unable to enjoy your favourite MMO, something which you are paying for, until they finally admit there is an issue and fix it.

Currently there is nothing you can do where as now with this bill you could be entitled to receive some of that money you have paid back.

This law already exists for many other area's of industry, why should games companies, which quite frankly some of them have been taking the **** lately treating their customers like crap knowing there is nothing they can do (EA and Turbine anybody) be immune?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#33 - 2013-05-06 17:17:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

"Thank you for purchasing 30 days of gametime for EVE! Please be aware that depending on player actions in game, your game experience may vary in specific locations within the game. This may lead to slower game performance or even inability to function in those specific areas. Due to the open, unscripted nature of EVE, these events may be beyond CCPs ability to control, although of course we are committed to doing our very best to give the most satisfactory game experience for you in EVE Online.

I understand and accept this condition of play. Please give me my 30 days of gametime [ ]

I do not accept this condition of play. Cancel my payment and do not give me 30 days of gametime [ ]"

That kind of legal tomfoolery has to stand before a Judge who will not necessaries be sympathetic to people sighing away their consumer rights. Which you can't in EU law, such a tickbox is irrelevance if the spirit of the service is interrupted without compensation.

Alice Saki wrote:
This is just stupid :|

Yer face is stupid P

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Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-06 17:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Missive Ernaga
Kharamete wrote:
Quote:
Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy.Therefore, even if the licence prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy

Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of
computer programs (OJ 2009 L 111, p. 16).



CCP does not give unlimited license on their software. /thread.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-05-06 17:19:12 UTC
posting as a totally law system ignorant, but CCP isnt an Iceland-based company?How will an UK law affect an Iceland-based company? Shocked
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#36 - 2013-05-06 17:21:02 UTC
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Kharamete wrote:
Quote:
Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy.Therefore, even if the licence prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy

Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of
computer programs (OJ 2009 L 111, p. 16).



CCP does not give unlimited license on their software. /thread.

Unlimited within the boundaries of the subscription period. It is not identical, it is related.

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Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-05-06 17:21:23 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
posting as a totally law system ignorant, but CCP isnt an Iceland-based company?How will an UK law affect an Iceland-based company? Shocked



EVE does not reside in iceland, only the developer/publisher of eve. Servers are in UK.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#38 - 2013-05-06 17:22:19 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
posting as a totally law system ignorant, but CCP isnt an Iceland-based company?How will an UK law affect an Iceland-based company? Shocked

The physical servers are located in London, and the UK did this in 2008 when Landbankski went under.

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Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-05-06 17:23:09 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Kharamete wrote:
Quote:
Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy.Therefore, even if the licence prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy

Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of
computer programs (OJ 2009 L 111, p. 16).



CCP does not give unlimited license on their software. /thread.

Unlimited within the boundaries of the subscription period. It is not identical, it is related.



Define a limited period.

Define unlimited period.

What one pertains to the subscription license?
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#40 - 2013-05-06 17:23:16 UTC
Kirjava wrote:


Alice Saki wrote:
This is just stupid :|

Yer face is stupid P


Cry

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.