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Nerfing ships everyone loves to fly
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Ginger Barbarella
#21 - 2013-04-30 20:36:06 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Easy solution: stop flying the flavor of the day. Be--- *gasp* --- original.


Fly like a masochist loser.Lol

"Original" fits are bad. All the working fits have already been invented by someone else. You are not a special snowflake. Whatever you come up with will either be not original, or crap.


You're quite right, everyone should just be yet another sheep-like unoriginal failure. Good advice. You keep flying that Battleclinic-fit Machariel, Mr. Awesome.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-04-30 20:48:30 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Easy solution: stop flying the flavor of the day. Be--- *gasp* --- original.


Fly like a masochist loser.Lol

"Original" fits are bad. All the working fits have already been invented by someone else. You are not a special snowflake. Whatever you come up with will either be not original, or crap.


You're quite right, everyone should just be yet another sheep-like unoriginal failure. Good advice. You keep flying that Battleclinic-fit Machariel, Mr. Awesome.


Lol, I'm not nearly rich enough to fly pvp Machs, nor do I possess the required paranoia. But please, enlighten us with your original fits so that we may encourage you to undock with it.Lol
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-04-30 22:18:49 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:

and Lady Naween you are right. There are plenty of ways to do small gang pvp that are fun and don't involve cynabals, talos or vagas.

That doesn't mean they should nerf an entire style of fighting. How much tank will a vaga have now that is has to use a mid slot for range? 17K EHP? . I offered several options that would give ships that fall victim to kiting a better chance and I'm sure there are plenty more out there.




who says you have to use a TC?

It just means you use a TE but you might (god forbid) give the chance for that blaster boat to possibly get webs on you if he pilots well.

At the moment all those annoying-ass kiting AC platforms just orbit you at 20km and because of their superior agility that 7km gap is just gives them too much breathing space and it basically makes flying those things completely risk free: complete range dictation combined with ability to leave whenever you want means overpowered.

Now you might actually have to get 3-4km closer to apply enough damage to break them and actually RISK your ship in pvp. Crazy concept yes?

Art of Explosions
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#24 - 2013-04-30 23:18:25 UTC
When was the rifter nerfed? It is exactly the same now as before the frigate rebalances. The other races were brought up in line with the rifter capabilties.

Current ship balance is prabably the best it has been for a long time in eve for all the ship line that have been redone. As the bigger ship lines and T2/3 stuff gets done then the balance will probably be spot on.

I fly minnie the most (allough I'm equally skilled across all races/weapons) and I have no problem with the TE changes or the general modifications to specific ships (i.e. cane) as they were very much needed to bring balance back.

oh an navy cane is NOT the old cane. It would stomp the old cane done hard! Navy cane is similar to the old cane in layout etc but the HP is far greater.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-04-30 23:32:54 UTC
Bah... This game has become Nerf Online...
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-04-30 23:39:37 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Bah... This game has become Nerf Online...


well thought out argument Sir, we are all in awe of your comprehensive and flawless deductions.

clearly everything is nerfed and not just balanced as we previously but wrongly thought.

Might I inquire if we can subscribe to your newsletter?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-04-30 23:43:02 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Bah... This game has become Nerf Online...



Nerf one thing and you buff everything else

Thus buffs vastly outnumber nerfs

BUFFS ONLINE!

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-05-01 00:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Now you might actually have to get 3-4km closer to apply enough damage to break them and actually RISK your ship in pvp. Crazy concept yes?



what's even crazier is that amarr or gallente sr brawler running te's for the same reason of boosint range is getting nerfed. So even if they have to get closer they are still in damage bleed off range of those now reduced ranges too.

Why I am not seeing this as a minmatar nerf. All guns get it. Instead of running burst and collision acc rigs the minny pilots will have to run sneak an ambit in. Oh the horror. Or that ambit they run now to get uber fallofff with TEat point range needs to be something more radical like a resist or HP boosting rig since they will be taking more damage now.

Range means that much they can also do wacky crap like train level 5's like AF to get it back a bit. Why I am not crying over the "nerf". I trained AF to 5 for my jags and wolves. I know what TE does with that level 5. As ccp is looking to put this gravy train out of commission I only have 1 question.....wtf took so long as one could say the setup was too nice if objective lol. its been a good run, now I will have to get my hands a bit dirtier. Not a bad thing all in all.

Or they can come to caldari. this change doesn't really affect them. they were the only race that used TE to actually enhance tracking. they have thier range boosts. And the crap tracking and damage as a caveat. Who knows, perhaps in this new era lolrox and eagle may blot out the sun as people find a new ship to kite in. Maybe I will win 10 miliions dollars today too.
Ron Maudieu
#29 - 2013-05-01 06:17:38 UTC
Bringing shield-tanked ships closer to ships that I love to fly. Smile
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#30 - 2013-05-01 07:27:40 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
How much tank will a vaga have now that is has to use a mid slot for range? 17K EHP?

You know, there was a time before TEs and TCs added falloff. Amazingly, without any ability to increase the range of the ACs on the Vagabond, people still flew it... In fact it was one of the most popular raiding ships in EVE.
And you know what else?

People got kills... lots of kills, in Vaga's with no TEs fitted at all.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#31 - 2013-05-01 21:04:00 UTC
Generally if one ship/system is high of its proper place on the power curve nerf it, it is lower buff it,

The tricky part is when balance is really whacked and you have to move everything at once.

This in my opinion is how angels got overpowered, they realized non sansha pirate boats were weak, and projectiles were a little off,

So they buffed projectiles (more damage types), buffed the angel ships, and buffed the TE far the hell of it in a way that helped projectiles the most )falloff).

So now you had the fastest ships with a gun that could be useful at long range and boom you have OP.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#32 - 2013-05-02 10:45:06 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
It seems CCP has the wrong idea of how to balance ships. When a ship or style of fighting becomes OP, they need to improve other ships and styles rather than make the ships everyone loves to fly (cough cough... Hurricane) worse. If many pilots are flying a ship because it is successful, why nerf it?

Tracking enhancers are a large part of PVP and removing the optimal range bonus will make many ships close to impossible to fly. Almost none of the ships that change will impact the most have the mid slots to add tracking computers. Furthermore, when people have skilled into certain ships, such as Minmatar, the last thing they want to see is all of their favorite ships nerfed.

CCP Stop nerfing minmatar ships. Seriously. What is the point? All you are doing is pissing people off instead of making the game more fun. How about you increase armor HP. Or increase the bonus for the honeycombing skill. Or improve web drones. I have been playing Eve for a year and a half, (I know that isn't long compared to some) but it seems CCP is trying to make small gang PVP worse. And if you are going to nerf something how about nerf jamming. Nothing else in EWAR takes a ship completely out of the fight. That could easily be balanced by creating targeting assist drones that significantly increase your sensor strength.



You are everything that is wrong with most other games. Thank **** CCP knows your tricks.

Hint: if there is a ship "everyone loves to fly" its almost certainly because its stupidly overpowered.
Fornic McKraken
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2013-05-06 07:46:02 UTC
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.

Not that anyone is paying attention to this post anymore. But stupid comments like the one posted by Lallante are not productive. So people like me are the problem with games? what because you lose to them? My KB isn't even all that good. I like good fights and don't rely on ganking. I lose ships all the time because I enjoy pvp and don't really care.

Yes I may have exaggerated the potential impact of the TE nerf on some ships but I still dislike the idea of making ships worse just cause they are too good at killing. How about make the ships losing all the time better instead. There are many ways of doing that but instead of offering good ideas, many people just cried like babies. "Whaaa Whaaa, I die to AC ships, they need to be nerfed." Instead of trying to belittle me for trying to think of ways to make ships better able to fight kiting ships, how about you offer new ideas.
Robert Lefcourt
BigPoppaMonkeys
E.B.O.L.A.
#34 - 2013-05-06 08:09:20 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So Cynabals being able to kite you outside of web range and hitting you for full damage with autocannons is completely good game design right.


Devs already stated that they will be nerfed.


regards,

Rob
Robert Lefcourt
BigPoppaMonkeys
E.B.O.L.A.
#35 - 2013-05-06 08:16:34 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.


So if one ship is out of line they should buff all others instead of nerfing one? You have to consider what goes along with buffing a whole line of ships. Get one wrong, and you will have to buff the others to keep up, an endless spiral. Ships are getting too easy to fly in Plexes and Missions and so on. Nah, nerfing the one which is out of line is much, much more efffective.


Regards,

Rob
Tashima
Clandestine Services
#36 - 2013-05-06 09:02:54 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
It seems CCP has the wrong idea of how to balance ships. When a ship or style of fighting becomes OP, they need to improve other ships and styles rather than make the ships everyone loves to fly (cough cough... Hurricane) worse. If many pilots are flying a ship because it is successful, why nerf it?

They have exactly the right idea. Its how you do it. You cant try and balance a single "OP" ship by making every other ship better. That's just stupid.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-05-06 09:05:22 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Easy solution: stop flying the flavor of the day. Be--- *gasp* --- original.


Fly like a masochist loser.Lol

"Original" fits are bad. All the working fits have already been invented by someone else. You are not a special snowflake. Whatever you come up with will either be not original, or crap.


You're quite right, everyone should just be yet another sheep-like unoriginal failure. Good advice. You keep flying that Battleclinic-fit Machariel, Mr. Awesome.

how about you try eating a barrel of crude oil for breakfast? or wearing a refrigerator box instead of clothes and a pair of smartphones for shoes? imo it's the best way to ensure that you are not an unoriginal failure. also, battleclinic fits and working fits are two sets that barely overlap.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-05-07 01:52:10 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.

Not that anyone is paying attention to this post anymore. But stupid comments like the one posted by Lallante are not productive. So people like me are the problem with games? what because you lose to them? My KB isn't even all that good. I like good fights and don't rely on ganking. I lose ships all the time because I enjoy pvp and don't really care.

Yes I may have exaggerated the potential impact of the TE nerf on some ships but I still dislike the idea of making ships worse just cause they are too good at killing. How about make the ships losing all the time better instead. There are many ways of doing that but instead of offering good ideas, many people just cried like babies. "Whaaa Whaaa, I die to AC ships, they need to be nerfed." Instead of trying to belittle me for trying to think of ways to make ships better able to fight kiting ships, how about you offer new ideas.



I already answered it, it is called power creep. It really is that simple.

If you keep buffing everything to match the strongest ships you will end up with say.. lets take the example of the hurricane.

So now we buff everything up to hurricane levels, making battleships (who already struggle in smaller pvp (ie not huge f1 alpha blobs) even worse looking. Ok so lets buff those as well... see where this is going? Oh wait, now cruisers are crap, lets buff.. and lets see frigs.. soon we have frigs with 50.000 DPS because we just over the years kept buffing things instead of when we have 1 or two ships in a class that are clearly MUCH better then their peers we could you know.. bring them down to the correct level where they will fit in with the others in that class and the class above and below.

WHich is what CCP is doing. For a looong time cruisers and frigs where.. well.. why fly them over the drake and hurricane? There really was no point, so now they are fixed and what do we see in lowsec (the area I can comment on as that is where I pvp)... well we see cruiser gangs... lots of them.. we see drone ships.. we see battlecruisers... hell we even see frig gangs... we now have a healthy diversity of ships all flittering around melting face and crying buckets in local :) the way it should be.

Could we have had that with your suggested method of buffing? Sure but we end up like WOW where there is just bigger and bigger numbers flying but little balance (last i checked years ago).

Avoiding power creep is a VERY VERY VERY VERY good strategy when it comes to balance.

And CCP is on the correct track.. and pvp is much more fun now that you dont just see hurricanes frakking everywhere!
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-05-07 07:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Shereza
Fornic McKraken wrote:
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.


That's not a reasonable suggestion. EVE Online has approximately 144 sub-cap T1/T2 ships (read that as non-civilian), another 16 or so pirate ships, and another 20 or so navy ships for roughly 180 sub-cap combat ships in total. Buffing all of them, or even anything more than a very small percentage of them, would require more work and more testing than nerfing a single ship would. That in turn could easily chain react into needing to buff more ships and put them through another round of balance testing as well.

By the same token if all the other ships in a given class perform within given parameters, and these parameters are ones set forth by CCP and classified as desirable, then it's reasonable to presume that they're not broken, the ship they're going to nerf is. In this situation the old saw "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes into play.

I sincerely doubt anyone is missing your point so much as dismissing your point due to how that philosophy is not part of good game design.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#40 - 2013-05-07 08:46:51 UTC
Fornic McKraken wrote:
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibi8iHMqjFs
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