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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#701 - 2013-05-05 22:36:01 UTC
Quote:
They can't really do anything to beams of all sizes to make them worth using over pulses with scorch in almost every scenario without completely breaking beams. And they can't nerf scorch to put beams in a place where a minor adjustment could make them useful without ruining pulses. So they're stuck until they do a complete revamp of energy turrets.

Quote:

Basically, you can buff beams ridiculously, and make them break rails, you can change rails and then have to change beams too, you can nerf pulses (because they are so OP /sarcasm) so beams are actually useful over pulses at some ranges, or you can... well, puzzle out something for beams to do.

As far as this current bandaid, I wouldn't be against a 15%/30%/15% to the attributes myself, just as a QoL buff, but this is supposed to be a bandaid, and this isn't how they want to fix things.

And let me just say: I'm really glad I'm not the one who has to fix it, because they have their work cut out for them.


And now we come full circle, as it were. I've stated this before, in fact I believe it was one of my first posts on the subject, on a sub thread started by Rina Kondur if I recall correctly.

The entire problem with this is that you are assuming Scorch is a given. It's a fair assumption all things considered, and it stems from the problem that the other crystals are not a viable alternative to Scorch.

THAT is the crux of the matter Bouh brings up. All this "stepping on toes" nonsense. Forgetting of course, that you could just put them pretty well on par, since they are statistically pretty close anyway. It's not like Tachyons would be down to 1100 PG each, they'd just be actually fittable without using 108% PG just for the guns.

Were the other crystals a viable alternative, pulses would not have this assumption of extreme range associated with them. Because pulses don't have long range, Scorch does. If people actually had a reason to load, say Gamma/Microwave, instead of Scorch and Multi, this might not be an issue. But lets face this. When you want range, you want range. When you want damage, you want damage.

So, yes, they do need to do a revamp of lasers and crystals in general. For starters they can shuffle around some of the damage types, so that EM isn't frontloaded; a Thermal heavy crystal would be nice.

But to say that the one good thing about lasers is somehow the problem... no, not buying that.

And yes, they do have quite a task ahead of them to fix this.

But the problem in front of us is not how we do or don't want them to reorganize lasers in the nebulous future. It's about how they do (or mostly don't) work right now.

Right now, they don't work, and are not worth fitting. We shouldn't have to wait a year for a hint of a maybe of a promise Rise made with his fingers crossed behind his back before we can actually get around to seriously fitting beams for once.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#702 - 2013-05-05 22:47:12 UTC
Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#703 - 2013-05-06 00:04:58 UTC
Quote:
Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?


I approve thoroughly of your use of the word "rubric". One of the things that keeps me coming back to these forums is the overall high level of discourse in EVE.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#704 - 2013-05-06 00:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
They can't really do anything to beams of all sizes to make them worth using over pulses with scorch in almost every scenario without completely breaking beams. And they can't nerf scorch to put beams in a place where a minor adjustment could make them useful without ruining pulses. So they're stuck until they do a complete revamp of energy turrets.

Quote:

Basically, you can buff beams ridiculously, and make them break rails, you can change rails and then have to change beams too, you can nerf pulses (because they are so OP /sarcasm) so beams are actually useful over pulses at some ranges, or you can... well, puzzle out something for beams to do.

As far as this current bandaid, I wouldn't be against a 15%/30%/15% to the attributes myself, just as a QoL buff, but this is supposed to be a bandaid, and this isn't how they want to fix things.

And let me just say: I'm really glad I'm not the one who has to fix it, because they have their work cut out for them.


And now we come full circle, as it were. I've stated this before, in fact I believe it was one of my first posts on the subject, on a sub thread started by Rina Kondur if I recall correctly.

The entire problem with this is that you are assuming Scorch is a given. It's a fair assumption all things considered, and it stems from the problem that the other crystals are not a viable alternative to Scorch.

THAT is the crux of the matter Bouh brings up. All this "stepping on toes" nonsense. Forgetting of course, that you could just put them pretty well on par, since they are statistically pretty close anyway. It's not like Tachyons would be down to 1100 PG each, they'd just be actually fittable without using 108% PG just for the guns.

Were the other crystals a viable alternative, pulses would not have this assumption of extreme range associated with them. Because pulses don't have long range, Scorch does. If people actually had a reason to load, say Gamma/Microwave, instead of Scorch and Multi, this might not be an issue. But lets face this. When you want range, you want range. When you want damage, you want damage.

So, yes, they do need to do a revamp of lasers and crystals in general. For starters they can shuffle around some of the damage types, so that EM isn't frontloaded; a Thermal heavy crystal would be nice.

But to say that the one good thing about lasers is somehow the problem... no, not buying that.

And yes, they do have quite a task ahead of them to fix this.

But the problem in front of us is not how we do or don't want them to reorganize lasers in the nebulous future. It's about how they do (or mostly don't) work right now.

Right now, they don't work, and are not worth fitting. We shouldn't have to wait a year for a hint of a maybe of a promise Rise made with his fingers crossed behind his back before we can actually get around to seriously fitting beams for once.


It isn't Amarr pilots fault that the Rokh may or may not be useful if beams were made fittable and fireable even if that were true. Nor should the devs keep an entire line of Amarr weapons, small, medium, or large, totally unplayable so that rails users are happy. The Rokh has a range bonus versus an Abaddon's dps bonus so of course if the Abaddon fits mega beams or tach's it will be doing more dps out to it's optimal while it has cap and then the Rokh takes over. So if you don't care about the Rokh's extra range then yes it may lose its role to a beam Abaddon, this is the case with all range-bonus ships and isn't unique here. Once again that isn't the Abaddon's fault so he shouldn't be forced into Scorch every time.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#705 - 2013-05-06 02:23:54 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:


It isn't Amarr pilots fault that the Rokh may or may not be useful if beams were made fittable and fireable even if that were true. Nor should the devs keep an entire line of Amarr weapons, small, medium, or large, totally unplayable so that rails users are happy. The Rokh has a range bonus versus an Abaddon's dps bonus so of course if the Abaddon fits mega beams or tach's it will be doing more dps out to it's optimal while it has cap and then the Rokh takes over. So if you don't care about the Rokh's extra range then yes it may lose its role to a beam Abaddon, this is the case with all range-bonus ships and isn't unique here. Once again that isn't the Abaddon's fault so he shouldn't be forced into Scorch every time.



And why again do we want them to destroy the balance for one thing just to balance another? Why trade one obsolete for another? I'd rather just wait until they fix it all, not ask them to **** one group just for the benefit of my group when they've said they plan to fix things.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#706 - 2013-05-06 02:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Goldensaver wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:


It isn't Amarr pilots fault that the Rokh may or may not be useful if beams were made fittable and fireable even if that were true. Nor should the devs keep an entire line of Amarr weapons, small, medium, or large, totally unplayable so that rails users are happy. The Rokh has a range bonus versus an Abaddon's dps bonus so of course if the Abaddon fits mega beams or tach's it will be doing more dps out to it's optimal while it has cap and then the Rokh takes over. So if you don't care about the Rokh's extra range then yes it may lose its role to a beam Abaddon, this is the case with all range-bonus ships and isn't unique here. Once again that isn't the Abaddon's fault so he shouldn't be forced into Scorch every time.



And why again do we want them to destroy the balance for one thing just to balance another? Why trade one obsolete for another? I'd rather just wait until they fix it all, not ask them to **** one group just for the benefit of my group when they've said they plan to fix things.


How is it going to destroy balance to allow mega-beams to even be fittable on an sane fit without a PG mod and 4-5 cap mods/rigs? As it is now (with new changes) an Apoc or Abaddon still can not fit an MWD + cap booster without a PG mod using Amarr's 2nd best weapon. This is excluding the 4-5 cap mods required because of the great balance that is mega-beams requiring the same cap as tachyons. No other race has that insane of tradeoffs when fitting, if that is balance to you then I can't argue further.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#707 - 2013-05-06 03:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Avald Midular wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:


It isn't Amarr pilots fault that the Rokh may or may not be useful if beams were made fittable and fireable even if that were true. Nor should the devs keep an entire line of Amarr weapons, small, medium, or large, totally unplayable so that rails users are happy. The Rokh has a range bonus versus an Abaddon's dps bonus so of course if the Abaddon fits mega beams or tach's it will be doing more dps out to it's optimal while it has cap and then the Rokh takes over. So if you don't care about the Rokh's extra range then yes it may lose its role to a beam Abaddon, this is the case with all range-bonus ships and isn't unique here. Once again that isn't the Abaddon's fault so he shouldn't be forced into Scorch every time.



And why again do we want them to destroy the balance for one thing just to balance another? Why trade one obsolete for another? I'd rather just wait until they fix it all, not ask them to **** one group just for the benefit of my group when they've said they plan to fix things.


How is it going to destroy balance to allow mega-beams to even be fittable on an sane fit without a PG mod and 4-5 cap mods/rigs? As it is now (with new changes) an Apoc or Abaddon still can not fit an MWD + cap booster without a PG mod using Amarr's 2nd best weapon. This is excluding the 4-5 cap mods required because of the great balance that is mega-beams requiring the same cap as tachyons. No other race has that insane of tradeoffs when fitting, if that is balance to you then I can't argue further.

Sorry. The wording implied to me that you meant "it's not our fault ours would be better, so just buff it."

As I said earlier, I'm all for a bigger bandaid, but this shouldn't make us into Robo Cop, and the Rokh into a lowly peasant.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#708 - 2013-05-06 03:38:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Were the other crystals a viable alternative, pulses would not have this assumption of extreme range associated with them. Because pulses don't have long range, Scorch does.

And yet Scorch in large pulses makes them effective even at medium skirmish ranges in a way that Void does not do for Blasters (because Blasters have no range), or even Barrage for Autocannons (because fighting deep in falloff is not as good as fighting just into it). This is because compared to other turret weapons (or Torps, for that matter), pulses do have long range.

Neutron Baster Cannon I: Optimal 6km, Falloff 10km
800mm Repeating Artillery I: Optimal 4km, Falloff: 19.2km
Mega Pulse Laser I: Optimal: 20km, Falloff: 8km
Torpedo: 1.5 km/s x 6s = 9km

Note that while perfect skills benefits Torps the most (rising range to 20.25km, but no improvements from better launchers, or from mods), of the turret weapons it benefits pulses the most (because skill affects optimal, not falloff, and pules have the best optimal).

Perhaps you'd like to explain how the basic T1, Meta 0 Mega Pulse having an unskilled, un-modded optimal+falloff of 28km counts as "pulses don't have long range". What pulses lack compared to other short-range turrets is tracking, and it's still good enough that it only matters at <5km, where all battleship guns have problems.
Quote:

So, yes, they do need to do a revamp of lasers and crystals in general. For starters they can shuffle around some of the damage types, so that EM isn't frontloaded; a Thermal heavy crystal would be nice.

"Scorch is a problem, so we want a better Scorch". Hmm.
Quote:

Right now, they don't work, and are not worth fitting. We shouldn't have to wait a year for a hint of a maybe of a promise Rise made with his fingers crossed behind his back before we can actually get around to seriously fitting beams for once.
If large pulses aren't worth fitting, no large weapon is.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#709 - 2013-05-06 04:30:11 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Were the other crystals a viable alternative, pulses would not have this assumption of extreme range associated with them. Because pulses don't have long range, Scorch does.

And yet Scorch in large pulses makes them effective even at medium skirmish ranges in a way that Void does not do for Blasters (because Blasters have no range), or even Barrage for Autocannons (because fighting deep in falloff is not as good as fighting just into it). This is because compared to other turret weapons (or Torps, for that matter), pulses do have long range.

Neutron Baster Cannon I: Optimal 6km, Falloff 10km
800mm Repeating Artillery I: Optimal 4km, Falloff: 19.2km
Mega Pulse Laser I: Optimal: 20km, Falloff: 8km
Torpedo: 1.5 km/s x 6s = 9km

Note that while perfect skills benefits Torps the most (rising range to 20.25km, but no improvements from better launchers, or from mods), of the turret weapons it benefits pulses the most (because skill affects optimal, not falloff, and pules have the best optimal).

Perhaps you'd like to explain how the basic T1, Meta 0 Mega Pulse having an unskilled, un-modded optimal+falloff of 28km counts as "pulses don't have long range". What pulses lack compared to other short-range turrets is tracking, and it's still good enough that it only matters at <5km, where all battleship guns have problems.
Quote:

So, yes, they do need to do a revamp of lasers and crystals in general. For starters they can shuffle around some of the damage types, so that EM isn't frontloaded; a Thermal heavy crystal would be nice.

"Scorch is a problem, so we want a better Scorch". Hmm.
Quote:

Right now, they don't work, and are not worth fitting. We shouldn't have to wait a year for a hint of a maybe of a promise Rise made with his fingers crossed behind his back before we can actually get around to seriously fitting beams for once.
If large pulses aren't worth fitting, no large weapon is.


I haven't seen anyone arguing for a scorch buff. A rebalance of laser damage types WOULD be nice, but I see something as powerful as scorch coming down as weaker after a complete rebalance. It'd be nice, for instance, if there was a long range EM, and a long range thermal crystal. Scorch remaining as is, would mean switching crystals depending on the opposing fleet compositions at long range- effectively scorch being less used.

I think you're mis-understanding; beams are not pulse lasers. Mega beams, and Tachyons, cannot fit or fire scorch. Or conflag. Most of the changes proposed are oriented around either reducing ALL laser capacitor usage, or reducing BEAM powergrid. One is a buff to scorch, but to be quite honest not a gigantic one. Hell, the Dev's already buffed scorch with a 10% reduction in pulse laser usage.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#710 - 2013-05-06 08:22:24 UTC
The PG buff mega beams received allow them to be used without fitting mods. A larger buff would put them to the level of short range weapons and you would be able to fit everything you want without tradeoff.

I know the Rokh don't have to make tradeoff to fit railguns, but that's more a problem of the Rokh having too large fitting than from amarr having not enough. Even gallente ships are hard pressed for CPU when using railguns.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#711 - 2013-05-06 08:24:32 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
How is it going to destroy balance to allow mega-beams to even be fittable on an sane fit without a PG mod and 4-5 cap mods/rigs? As it is now (with new changes) an Apoc or Abaddon still can not fit an MWD + cap booster without a PG mod using Amarr's 2nd best weapon. This is excluding the 4-5 cap mods required because of the great balance that is mega-beams requiring the same cap as tachyons. No other race has that insane of tradeoffs when fitting, if that is balance to you then I can't argue further.


[Abaddon, Beambaddon]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

No PG rigs, cap booster provides necessary cap to run guns, Does 713 DPS has 150k EHP with very good resists.
Similar fit Megathron reaches 710 dps with 109k EHP, still needs to use the cap booster to fuel guns, though cap requirement is more relaxed.
Similar fit Mael has about 120k EHP, doesn't use cap, but deals much lower dps (albeit with good alpha), needs to fit pg mod.
Similar fit Rokh has about 140k EHP with very good resists, uses cap booster for fueling the guns, lacks at dps, but has higher range.

So where is the problem?

If you want to fit tachs, which will deal 770 DPS...what do you want to trade off? It is possbile to fit with 1 pg rig and -1 plate. So you can sacrifice some EHP(down to 120k) to gain DPS.

If you want better cap life 1pg rig -1 plate and put a t2 discharge rig. You'll sacrifice EHP (Down to 120k) to gain cap.

Tradeoffs are there. Amarr have the chance to do the trade EHP or cap for higher damage.

You were mentioning 4-5 cap mods....were you trying to achieve balance at PvE fits??
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2013-05-06 09:00:03 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The PG buff mega beams received allow them to be used without fitting mods. A larger buff would put them to the level of short range weapons and you would be able to fit everything you want without tradeoff.

I know the Rokh don't have to make tradeoff to fit railguns, but that's more a problem of the Rokh having too large fitting than from amarr having not enough. Even gallente ships are hard pressed for CPU when using railguns.

Even Rokhs have problems fitting an active tank and Rails, and given that Megathrons outright do more DPS from 7 turrets than a Rokh from 8 I don't think that the Rokh having it fitting nerfed is exactly necessary.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#713 - 2013-05-06 10:14:46 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
How is it going to destroy balance to allow mega-beams to even be fittable on an sane fit without a PG mod and 4-5 cap mods/rigs? As it is now (with new changes) an Apoc or Abaddon still can not fit an MWD + cap booster without a PG mod using Amarr's 2nd best weapon. This is excluding the 4-5 cap mods required because of the great balance that is mega-beams requiring the same cap as tachyons. No other race has that insane of tradeoffs when fitting, if that is balance to you then I can't argue further.


[Abaddon, Beambaddon]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

No PG rigs, cap booster provides necessary cap to run guns, Does 713 DPS has 150k EHP with very good resists.
Similar fit Megathron reaches 710 dps with 109k EHP, still needs to use the cap booster to fuel guns, though cap requirement is more relaxed.
Similar fit Mael has about 120k EHP, doesn't use cap, but deals much lower dps (albeit with good alpha), needs to fit pg mod.
Similar fit Rokh has about 140k EHP with very good resists, uses cap booster for fueling the guns, lacks at dps, but has higher range.

So where is the problem?

If you want to fit tachs, which will deal 770 DPS...what do you want to trade off? It is possbile to fit with 1 pg rig and -1 plate. So you can sacrifice some EHP(down to 120k) to gain DPS.

If you want better cap life 1pg rig -1 plate and put a t2 discharge rig. You'll sacrifice EHP (Down to 120k) to gain cap.

Tradeoffs are there. Amarr have the chance to do the trade EHP or cap for higher damage.

You were mentioning 4-5 cap mods....were you trying to achieve balance at PvE fits??


Nice fit.... I see you glossed over the fact that it has 1:34 or there abouts cap life at current stats. Add in the reduction and that might get up to 2 minutes. Of course, it also requires perfect Lvl V fitting skills to do that without a PG mod, and is using the SECOND BEST lasers. Rather than the best Rails & Arty that you are using as a comparison. And pays no attention to the reload cycle on the cap booster either which with a medium loading 800's will be exceptionally fast burning through your cap life. Also an Optimal of 38km using those stats.
John 1135
#714 - 2013-05-06 10:18:14 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
How is it going to destroy balance to allow mega-beams to even be fittable on an sane fit without a PG mod and 4-5 cap mods/rigs? As it is now (with new changes) an Apoc or Abaddon still can not fit an MWD + cap booster without a PG mod using Amarr's 2nd best weapon. This is excluding the 4-5 cap mods required because of the great balance that is mega-beams requiring the same cap as tachyons. No other race has that insane of tradeoffs when fitting, if that is balance to you then I can't argue further.


[Abaddon, Beambaddon]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

No PG rigs, cap booster provides necessary cap to run guns, Does 713 DPS has 150k EHP with very good resists.
Similar fit Megathron reaches 710 dps with 109k EHP, still needs to use the cap booster to fuel guns, though cap requirement is more relaxed.
Similar fit Mael has about 120k EHP, doesn't use cap, but deals much lower dps (albeit with good alpha), needs to fit pg mod.
Similar fit Rokh has about 140k EHP with very good resists, uses cap booster for fueling the guns, lacks at dps, but has higher range.

So where is the problem?

If you want to fit tachs, which will deal 770 DPS...what do you want to trade off? It is possbile to fit with 1 pg rig and -1 plate. So you can sacrifice some EHP(down to 120k) to gain DPS.

If you want better cap life 1pg rig -1 plate and put a t2 discharge rig. You'll sacrifice EHP (Down to 120k) to gain cap.

Tradeoffs are there. Amarr have the chance to do the trade EHP or cap for higher damage.

You were mentioning 4-5 cap mods....were you trying to achieve balance at PvE fits??

They'd like a fit that can fire for more than 80 seconds, for a start. Or 240 with MWD off and booster running (which will require 640m3 of cap boosters in the 525m3 cargohold...)
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#715 - 2013-05-06 10:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
John 1135 wrote:

They'd like a fit that can fire for more than 80 seconds, for a start. Or 240 with MWD off and booster running (which will require 640m3 of cap boosters in the 525m3 cargohold...)

They have it then :)

That fit will run with cap boosters and MWD off as long as you have them in cargohold. Which is around 6.5 minutes. With careful managing you can stretch this to 8-9 minutes.

or:

Deerin wrote:
If you want better cap life -1 plate and put a t2 discharge rig. You'll sacrifice EHP (Down to 120k) to gain cap.


Much easier to manage this way.

All I hear from Amarrians is bickering and senseless crying. Not one constructive post is being made: "WAAAAH Cap WAAAH Fitting etc etc." Try to contribute dammit!!!

I posted this in Amarr BS thread but it got drowned in tears. I'll post it here too:

Proposal: Lump Heatsink bonuses into a single 20% damage bonus to keep cap consumption of amarr ships at managable levels for multiple heatsinks.
John 1135
#716 - 2013-05-06 10:55:23 UTC
Deerin wrote:
John 1135 wrote:

They'd like a fit that can fire for more than 80 seconds, for a start. Or 240 with MWD off and booster running (which will require 640m3 of cap boosters in the 525m3 cargohold...)

They have it then :)

That fit will run with cap boosters and MWD off as long as you have them in cargohold. Which is around 6.5 minutes. With careful managing you can stretch this to 8-9 minutes.

The cargohold is not large enough to do that. It's 525m3. To run for 240seconds would require 640m3 of cap boosters.

Deerin wrote:
All I hear from Amarrians is bickering and senseless crying. Not one constructive post is being made: "WAAAAH Cap WAAAH Fitting etc etc." Try to contribute dammit!!!

You're mistaken. The constructive posts *are* the ones pointing out Amarr have an issue with cap. That's the point.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#717 - 2013-05-06 11:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
John 1135 wrote:

The cargohold is not large enough to do that. It's 525m3. To run for 240seconds would require 640m3 of cap boosters.


Med cap booster
12 sec run time + 10 sec reload time = 1 charge each 22 seconds

525m^3 bay = 16 charges + 1 in module = 17 (22 faction ones)

17*22=374 seconds = 6,2 minutes.(8 minutes faction ones)

You can even make it longer with using med cargo containers.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#718 - 2013-05-06 11:06:01 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
The constructive posts *are* the ones pointing out Amarr have an issue with cap. That's the point.

That's not constructive. That's cries. Cries are not constructive, because they bring no solutions, and even worse, they bring no reasons.

Balance is not christmas or bringing everything equal.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#719 - 2013-05-06 12:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Nice fit.... I see you glossed over the fact that it has 1:34 or there abouts cap life at current stats. Add in the reduction and that might get up to 2 minutes. Of course, it also requires perfect Lvl V fitting skills to do that without a PG mod, and is using the SECOND BEST lasers. Rather than the best Rails & Arty that you are using as a comparison. And pays no attention to the reload cycle on the cap booster either which with a medium loading 800's will be exceptionally fast burning through your cap life. Also an Optimal of 38km using those stats.


Duration with MWD on is crap for all the BS. I wouldn't consider it a comparison parameter.

It fits with ENG 5 ELE 5 WU5 and AWU 4, which is very easy to attain.

Yes it is using SECOND BEST lasers and STILL OUTDAMAGES nearest competitior (Which is megathrone using 3 magfieldstabs). You CAN use BEST lasers to reach beastly DPS values, but it needs compromise.

...and it DOES factor in recycle time on cap boosters.

Also Optimal is 39 Megabeams vs 41 Rails on Megathron (which cannot fit secondary tracking computer due to CPU issues)
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#720 - 2013-05-06 13:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Deerin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Nice fit.... I see you glossed over the fact that it has 1:34 or there abouts cap life at current stats. Add in the reduction and that might get up to 2 minutes. Of course, it also requires perfect Lvl V fitting skills to do that without a PG mod, and is using the SECOND BEST lasers. Rather than the best Rails & Arty that you are using as a comparison. And pays no attention to the reload cycle on the cap booster either which with a medium loading 800's will be exceptionally fast burning through your cap life. Also an Optimal of 38km using those stats.


Duration with MWD on is crap for all the BS. I wouldn't consider it a comparison parameter.

It fits with ENG 5 ELE 5 WU5 and AWU 4, which is very easy to attain.

Yes it is using SECOND BEST lasers and STILL OUTDAMAGES nearest competitior (Which is megathrone using 3 magfieldstabs). You CAN use BEST lasers to reach beastly DPS values, but it needs compromise.

...and it DOES factor in recycle time on cap boosters.

Also Optimal is 39 Megabeams vs 41 Rails on Megathron (which cannot fit secondary tracking computer due to CPU issues)


Can you post your "compariable" Mega fit? I'm calling BS on not being able to fit something that outperforms even before the 2 minute cap life for the Abaddon. There's no way this fit wins against any similarly fit 1400 Arty fit so calling whatever that fit is "compariable" isn't really fair, all the Mael has to do it outlive the cap by dictating range since the Baddon won't be able to MWD much at all. We are also complaining here and in the Amarr BS thread that they are shoehorned into buffer tanking every time due to fitting and I noticed your build goes right along with that, a choice like other races have would be nice in this manner.

When the MWD is twice as bad on Amarr due to mega-beams drawing 5.8 GJ a second plus the MWD, it is a comparison point. If your fit is so good why don't we see it on TQ? Current fleet doctrines include Rokh fleets with rail and Arty Abaddons, but no mega-beams or tach's. Apparently calling it balanced when it has a 2 minute firing life isn't so appropriate. No one here is saying Rails are or are not balanced, especially at the medium level, we're trying to propose change to get beams used AT ALL (even small and medium) and proposing compromise builds that require full cargo holds for 2-3 min cap life and require level 5 skills doesn't disprove out point.