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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Build Costs

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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-05-05 20:24:19 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:

As of now, i seriously doubt any massive boost at all. They have done huge changes for other races and added a slot to 2 of the caldari ships, ignoring the real issues and nerfing them when they are even barely used.


P.S- Caldaqri pilots would get more love in a prison shower right now.


As someone with high missile skills and Caldari battleship 5 who has tested the new Raven on Duality-

It's not good. At all. Still slow (hampered by awful capacitor and poor agility), EXCEPTIONALLY poor defense (Seriously- the NAVY AUGOROR can pretty much beat the Raven in terms of EHP- It's loads cheaper and it still does 50% of the Raven's DPS!), it has the sig of a small moon... There really are no upsides to the Raven now, at all, anymore, except maybe 'selectable damage types'. You have flight time (which was admittedly cut with the cruise missile boost), you have enemy sig/velocity penalties (which were smoothed out a bit with the cruise missile buffs, but I'm not sure how well it'll actually go), you have NO staying power whatsoever in ANY fight, you don't have the capacitor to haul your battleship into kiting range, you don't have the DPS to thwart an active tanked Dominix somehow... This ship is not worth 200 million ISK. This whole rebalancing of battleships has hit Caldari in the balls so hard that honestly they're only worth flying in the frigate and cruiser categories. You will NOT see more Ravens be flown in PvP. Likely, it'll drop off to actually being zero. Same with Scorpions. HORRIBLE sig resolution, abysmal forced armor tank, no weapons, first primary... ~180 million ISK. Not worth it. Not worth it at all.

What i dont understand ,(actually i do ,they do it cause they hate caldari biased devs bleh...) why the hell the raven has to be so much shittier than fe(to which we can compare it the most) the typhoon which is pretty much a matarized raven, oh yeah matarized which means just plain better in every possible term
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#322 - 2013-05-05 20:36:38 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Can you test the phoon out by chance, just to verify the ridiculous imbalance?


If you give me a few minutes, I can, yes. There's also only one person on Duality for some arcane reason.


Thankyou kindly.

As far as I see it, the phoon will of course be the better of the 2, and would make a solid remote armor rep fleet ship, fitted with torps/painters/webs to steamroll people.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#323 - 2013-05-05 20:39:14 UTC
Aglais wrote:

As someone with high missile skills and Caldari battleship 5 who has tested the new Raven on Duality-

It's not good. At all. Still slow (hampered by awful capacitor and poor agility), EXCEPTIONALLY poor defense (Seriously- the NAVY AUGOROR can pretty much beat the Raven in terms of EHP- It's loads cheaper and it still does 50% of the Raven's DPS!), it has the sig of a small moon... There really are no upsides to the Raven now, at all, anymore, except maybe 'selectable damage types'. You have flight time (which was admittedly cut with the cruise missile boost), you have enemy sig/velocity penalties (which were smoothed out a bit with the cruise missile buffs, but I'm not sure how well it'll actually go), you have NO staying power whatsoever in ANY fight, you don't have the capacitor to haul your battleship into kiting range, you don't have the DPS to thwart an active tanked Dominix somehow... This ship is not worth 200 million ISK. This whole rebalancing of battleships has hit Caldari in the balls so hard that honestly they're only worth flying in the frigate and cruiser categories. You will NOT see more Ravens be flown in PvP. Likely, it'll drop off to actually being zero. Same with Scorpions. HORRIBLE sig resolution, abysmal forced armor tank, no weapons, first primary... ~180 million ISK. Not worth it. Not worth it at all.


Shield and armor tank is really difficult to compare because shield has passive regen that kicks into too. You have to take inconsideration reinforcement and the passive regen that in some situations can win your day. I do not say Raven is uber ship but maybe you do not give it enough well thought still.

Honestly the winner of the rebalance is once again winmatars. Amarr got a kick on the ass too.. Harder than Caldari I would say. But what I consider ridiculous is that winnies got Typhoon as it is. Its way more flexible and PVP boat than raven can ever be. Seems that also Gallente got over powered BS which looks its from anime serie and not from EVE.. Oh holy cross nuke me to bits -_-
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#324 - 2013-05-05 20:47:59 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Can you test the phoon out by chance, just to verify the ridiculous imbalance?


If you give me a few minutes, I can, yes. There's also only one person on Duality for some arcane reason.


Thankyou kindly.

As far as I see it, the phoon will of course be the better of the 2, and would make a solid remote armor rep fleet ship, fitted with torps/painters/webs to steamroll people.


Alright. The Typhoon can fit multiple painters and webs if you want, can get 78,880 EHP with two trimark rigs and a rigor in the rig slots, it's only like 8 m/s slower than the Raven with two 1600mm II plates on it, seems to align at about the same rate. Capacitor roughly the same. Initially, it looks like the Raven takes a win here actually, because the Typhoon does less damage with it's cruise missiles- then you remember it has a nontrivial drone bay. Oh. They're practically on par. Typhoon wins for sig radius, lock speed, utility going towards actually using it's missiles. The Raven I'd fit has two CDFE Is and an EM resist rig, which SEEMS to boost it's EHP to 81k, actually. Which is surprising, because that still burns away like ******* nothing in a fight.

...Huh. Just from looking at stats, it almost looks like the Raven is marginally better than the Typhoon. Then you remember it's bonus and the fact that it can easily fit multiple painters/webs. I think the Typhoon will still actually perform better in a real fight, somehow.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#325 - 2013-05-05 20:52:40 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Will insurance values be looked at? If not the current tier 1/2 will be a lot less viable for many pilots than the current tier 3 which seems a shame considering the effort being put into balancing them.



I would argue "what effort?" Caldari were crappy PvP battleships to start with. Now they are worse off. To be honest, I was hard pressed to think of a way to manage that. But hey the devs found a way.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#326 - 2013-05-05 20:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Can you test the phoon out by chance, just to verify the ridiculous imbalance?


If you give me a few minutes, I can, yes. There's also only one person on Duality for some arcane reason.


Thankyou kindly.

As far as I see it, the phoon will of course be the better of the 2, and would make a solid remote armor rep fleet ship, fitted with torps/painters/webs to steamroll people.


Alright. The Typhoon can fit multiple painters and webs if you want, can get 78,880 EHP with two trimark rigs and a rigor in the rig slots, it's only like 8 m/s slower than the Raven with two 1600mm II plates on it, seems to align at about the same rate. Capacitor roughly the same. Initially, it looks like the Raven takes a win here actually, because the Typhoon does less damage with it's cruise missiles- then you remember it has a nontrivial drone bay. Oh. They're practically on par. Typhoon wins for sig radius, lock speed, utility going towards actually using it's missiles. The Raven I'd fit has two CDFE Is and an EM resist rig, which SEEMS to boost it's EHP to 81k, actually. Which is surprising, because that still burns away like ******* nothing in a fight.

...Huh. Just from looking at stats, it almost looks like the Raven is marginally better than the Typhoon. Then you remember it's bonus and the fact that it can easily fit multiple painters/webs. I think the Typhoon will still actually perform better in a real fight, somehow.


Thanks for checking. I figure with the bonus, its applying more dps in general.

Did you have 3 or 4 Ballistic controls on the Raven ? How many for your fit on the phoon?

Marginally close tanks, speed is so close it wont make any difference. Surprising with 2 plates.

Sig radius radius of the raven will make it more susceptible to damage by a fair amount. Atleast the phoon drone bay was reduced.

Over all, how do you feel with them in actual combat, are they worth the cost increase?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#327 - 2013-05-05 21:00:36 UTC
Hagika wrote:


Thanks for checking. I figure with the bonus, its applying more dps in general.

Did you have 3 or 4 Ballistic controls on the Raven ? How many for your fit on the phoon?


I had three BCS II, a nanofibre II and a DC II on the Raven's lowslots, and only two on the typhoon (if not for the nanofibre, the Typhoon would've been faster than the Raven).
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#328 - 2013-05-05 21:06:15 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Thanks for checking. I figure with the bonus, its applying more dps in general.

Did you have 3 or 4 Ballistic controls on the Raven ? How many for your fit on the phoon?


I had three BCS II, a nanofibre II and a DC II on the Raven's lowslots, and only two on the typhoon (if not for the nanofibre, the Typhoon would've been faster than the Raven).


Really hate trading out tank for missile rigs in pvp. A weaker ship is bad news.

With bonus on the phoon, using all tank rigs. Probably still will win out over the raven.

They really need to allow the raven to applky damage alot better.

Pretty sad it took a nano fiber to allow the shield ship a slight faster speed over a 2 T2 plated ship.

Maybe the only saving grace is 4 bcs on the raven, though diminishing returns hurts the dps alot.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#329 - 2013-05-05 21:08:23 UTC
Aglais wrote:
I had three BCS II, a nanofibre II and a DC II on the Raven's lowslots, and only two on the typhoon (if not for the nanofibre, the Typhoon would've been faster than the Raven).


I do not have the skills to fly them for real but if you can have some pew pew between them I would be interested :p Also just try them against other BSes too when you can. My skills are not yet up to V so I can't really help :p
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2013-05-05 21:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
For a guy who hasn't lost anything bigger than a harbinger in the last year, you sure seem knowledgeable about the costs of big burly battleships.


To be fair, I've lost two carriers this year too, but these days I mostly fly supers.


Price for supers must be increased by 1000x. They still keep building them double it, then triple etc.

There seems to be too many of them at the moment.
__________________________________________

Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?
Marga Vhiran
Ice Fire Warriors
#331 - 2013-05-05 22:48:38 UTC
I think the problem with this change is that it further increases the gap between large and small corps/alliances. If you've got something like tech moons paying the bills, it's no problem to increase the price of your mainstay ship by 40 million isk. If you're a smaller entity, you're suddenly much less willing and/or able to field battleship fleets and you are that much less able to do anything when a larger organization comes a-knocking. Won't someone think of the space middle class?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#332 - 2013-05-05 23:09:57 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:


Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?


I rather agree with this to be honest, but at the same time: Gallente NEEDED the buffs. It's great that Gallente have been addressed and could actually be pretty usable in future, because they've always been struggling. So I'd give them some credit for that.

On the other hand, the 'status quo but now the geddon is a neut domi' treatment of Amarr and the 'horf horf horf let's nerf already bad ships into the ground and then jack up their prices ridiculously' "fix" applied to Caldari are... Well that's not balancing at all. I don't know what this is. I am however pretty unhappy with the fact that people can seriously throw around the term 'winmatar' and have been able to do so for so long; if anything, THEY should be getting the nerfs, not 'Faildari'.
Gejja Tokan
Lighting the blight
#333 - 2013-05-05 23:24:59 UTC
I like the changes.
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#334 - 2013-05-06 00:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bucca Zerodyme
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
For a guy who hasn't lost anything bigger than a harbinger in the last year, you sure seem knowledgeable about the costs of big burly battleships.


To be fair, I've lost two carriers this year too, but these days I mostly fly supers.


Price for supers must be increased by 1000x. They still keep building them double it, then triple etc.

There seems to be too many of them at the moment.
__________________________________________

Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?


To be honest the last good Update from CCP, are the Update with the cruisers. What was it called again?
I dont remember Retribution to be a good update in my point of view. What did they do? Added Bounty-System and a mining-Frigate, great bounty's are useless. The Mining frigate is fine.

I would rather delete the last 2-3 Updates from CCP, for a exchange for.
- POS fixes
- Corporation right's
- Fix Missiles
- Fix your damn Code
You know if you had a better Code, it would be much easier to fix broken things.

Im really disappointed with this Update, im not even sure if Incarna is worse then Odyssey.

PS: Dont need Visual Updates, i would rather play in Text-Form then playing a bad game.

Edit: im going to play Pokemon Diamant now.
Edit of Edit: Its called Pokemon Diamond in English.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#335 - 2013-05-06 00:47:30 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.


This could not be very far from the truth :p I always wondered why there was this one -10s in Hek and never shot by concord. Woot woot secret conspiracy CCP are minnies! Minnies I tell you!! awawawaaw bllplrpl
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2013-05-06 03:51:56 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:

@ Hagika
Shield/launcher ships are very problematic balance wise. Missiles are versatile damage weapon system that enables you to pierce through any known tank in EVE when you know what damage to shoot. When you fit your ship well they can also take out smaller ships which turret systems can't always do. When mixed to tank shield (mid slot) type that allows you to fit good bunch of damage mods to low slots you get really deadly system.

Except that the fitting that lets you hit small ships includes 2+ Painters, and that attacks your tank. Oh, and missiles and their support mods are fairly CPU intensive (especially Torps), and so are shields...
Quote:

What comes to Raven I think it will get massive boost in Odyssey. That extra mid and the cruise buff makes it really good ship. Bit of irony though is that Typhoon seems to be better missile boat even Winmatars did not ever have primary missile system boats.. I could kick the dev / designer in CCP who keeps turning the M upside down for Winmatar.. Like they did not have already good toys or superior toys.

And this is the problem - why take a Raven over a Typhoon? I really like the 'Phoon, and think the Raven is ugly, but this doesn't not mean that the 'Phoon should be outright better than the Raven.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2013-05-06 03:56:36 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:

All in all I am really sad what is happening to BSes. These changes put BSes into shadow. Ships that have been really iconic part of EVE for long. Then again it gives more space for more agile ships to be flown so we will see what we will experience in Odyssey.

I agree with this completely.

I'm fine with battleships being ponderous - if you want a fast, snappy ship, you fly a T3 or a command ship, or something like the 'Cane. But battleships should be offering a very different experience, one where when a cruiser shoots you, you get to shrug and laugh at them for not bringing an entire fleet of friends, and one where when you push 'F1' something really noticeable happens to someone (unless they're another battleship, in which case you settle in for a long slugging match). As it is, BS damage projection feels poor, and their tanks seem to get torn up by fast agile ships too easily, IMO.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2013-05-06 04:02:29 UTC
Hagika wrote:

Pretty sad it took a nano fiber to allow the shield ship a slight faster speed over a 2 T2 plated ship.
I'm more bothered about the poor agility. Caldari ships have traditionally been slow, but have had good align times. Now they're slow, and align slowly as well (e.g. the Drake agility nerf).
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#339 - 2013-05-06 08:58:19 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

And this is the problem - why take a Raven over a Typhoon? I really like the 'Phoon, and think the Raven is ugly, but this doesn't not mean that the 'Phoon should be outright better than the Raven.


Caldari ship could use some rework on the looks. Also minny ships. Most of those models simply look outdated.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#340 - 2013-05-06 11:21:21 UTC
Hurray to botting.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP