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NPC Fleets in Low-Sec
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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#81 - 2013-05-03 21:03:20 UTC
El Geo wrote:
The new tags to increase sec status will help lowsec become more populated, I for one am lazy when it comes to gaining sec and prefer to stay above -2, so the new changes should see more people looking for things to kill, this doesn't exactly create a sandbox though, miners and industrialists are likely to still stay away, how to bring them into lowsec?


My biggest problem as small corp capsuleer is that some gates are literally camped 24/7. Yes its usually easy to see those choke points. But this said moving ships around low sec is simply too risky. This affects scanning sites, doing sites, doing missions. In missions you usually need to take 1 jump at least to get to mission site. If I would like to do IV mission in low a) for many it brings in mind BS, BS price is now going up which makes it even bigger risk (pssst even worse than it already is) b) mission rewards are not simply worth it they just are not.

I would like to be able to fly in space that was not as ultra safe as high sec is but right now how low sec risk and reward is -- don't go there -- and even how the PVP is between PVE <-> PVP fit ships. I do not see myself coming to low sec for very long time. There are simply too many issues to risk any PVE fit ship in most PVE activity there is to low sec. Just too many..

Seriously to expect more people in low sec. CCP would need to a) reduce risks that capsuleers face in low sec b) balance reward with the risk you take

I also would like to see solo and small corp being able to take part some of the better systems in low sec. Its not impossible no just risky.

If you are a pirate and want shoot players then vote for reducing the risk and increase the reward because otherwise you do not get anyone to shoot at.
paritybit
Stimulus
#82 - 2013-05-03 21:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
Felsusguy wrote:
Mining Fleet
A mining fleet. Nothing special, just a group of miners and a protective escort. If you do criminal things near them, the security escort will engage you. Capsuleer miners can tag along for the security benefits. These fleets only appear in systems that have decent amounts of ore, and generally become less common as system security drops. These fleets also appear in the Outer Ring, regardless of a system's security status. If they come under attack, they will send a distress signal in local that capsuleers can either choose to ignore or choose to help. Helping them against raiders will provide a standings increase and possibly other benefits. Mining fleets occur less often in systems where mining fleets often come under attack. Barges in the fleet will often carry a few drones, though not enough to defend themselves very well. NPC miners will attempt to warp away from conflict if possible, and you must tackle them or they will get away.

Transport Convoys
Convoys carrying materials from Point A to Point B. They always have armed escorts. If they come under attack, they will send a distress signal in local that capsuleers can either choose to ignore or choose to help. Helping them against raiders will provide a standings increase and possibly other benefits.

...

Police Patrols
Factional police patrols in low-sec. They certainly aren't as strong as those in high-sec, but they shouldn't be ignored, either. They patrol their own faction's low-sec space, and will attack those recently involved in criminal acts, those with very low security status, and those with very low standings towards that particular faction. If a DED Strike Team, Mining Fleet or another Police Patrol sends out a distress call, they will answer. They are far more likely to patrol systems that directly border high-sec, regardless of security status, but higher system security translates into a larger fleet. They are also more likely to patrol systems that often have criminal acts occurring in them. If a capsuleer commits a criminal act against another capsuleer in low-sec, police patrols may intervene (and warp to the conflict if necessary) depending on the standings and security status of those involved. Some of them have tackling capabilities. A message is transmitted in local when they enter or leave the system, and you can detect them on your on-board scanner. If you want an easy kill, try to strike when police patrols are either gone or pathetic enough to deal with easily, or you can get a high standing with that faction's navy (military corruption... it's such a beautiful thing).


I liked these three ideas, but not the rest.

I like the mining fleet and transport convoy because they could provide a focal point for action, similar to a faction warfare complex. It's also a potential means for making isk that doesn't make you a "good guy", which will appeal to some but not all. But mostly I like it because it encourages people to be out shooting rats with PVP fits which means jumping to actual PVP is not such a big shift.

I like the Police Patrol idea because, really, who likes gate camps? They discourage people from coming to low-security space. They are indiscriminate. There is often nothing you can do to avoid them, leaving a feeling of helplessness. And even the people participating in them aren't really getting much out of it. But I'm not sure I like them doing more than disrupting camps.

I've lived on both sides of the law. I often prowled through low-security space as a law-abiding citizen hoping to avoid gate camps and earn the odd isk here or there. I even tried to be an anti-pirate -- but target selection is mighty limited that way because so few are willing to risk the penalties of negative security status. Now I'm a pirate and I have targets aplenty. The downside (and upside) is that everybody can shoot at me. Frigates can catch me on a gate. I'm not afraid of PVP -- even when I'm losing. But gate camps are just not fun.

I do not want to see bounty hunter NPCs or DED strike teams. Players should be doing that. Players are doing that. I'd love to see security and other law-enforcement activities in the hands of players. Where I think NPCs have a role is in serving as a focal point for activity in otherwise unorganized space. I realize this conflicts a little bit with my statements about gate camps, but I just don't see them as adding any interest to the game at all.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#83 - 2013-05-03 22:06:04 UTC
paritybit wrote:
I do not want to see bounty hunter NPCs or DED strike teams. Players should be doing that. Players are doing that. I'd love to see security and other law-enforcement activities in the hands of players. Where I think NPCs have a role is in serving as a focal point for activity in otherwise unorganized space. I realize this conflicts a little bit with my statements about gate camps, but I just don't see them as adding any interest to the game at all.

Players can't do everything. Honestly, I would like to see players signing up to the DED, but if that doesn't happen I think enforcement NPCs should. EVE is all about the consequences, but unless you majorly **** someone off, the consequences are sorely lacking.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-05-03 22:18:53 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:

Players can't do everything. Honestly, I would like to see players signing up to the DED, but if that doesn't happen I think enforcement NPCs should. EVE is all about the consequences, but unless you majorly **** someone off, the consequences are sorely lacking.


I would love to see players eventually replace a majority of CONCORD in general, but I think having NPCs sort of "train" players in what CONCORD, and especially DED, are supposed to do first would set the stage right.


paritybit
Stimulus
#85 - 2013-05-04 06:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
Felsusguy wrote:
Players can't do everything. Honestly, I would like to see players signing up to the DED, but if that doesn't happen I think enforcement NPCs should. EVE is all about the consequences, but unless you majorly **** someone off, the consequences are sorely lacking.


Even being new to this criminal thing I can say that I've lost a few ships I wouldn't have lost if I wasn't flashy. There are consequences when players work at it.

The problem is that players won't do it if NPCs always get there first.

Before I was a pirate I promoted the idea of getting rid of the faction navy spawns that chased criminals in high sec (you know, the ones that rarely ever catch them, just make them move so fast players can't catch them either). I've largely stopped promoting this idea because I expect people will think it's because I'm a criminal and I want to avoid my consequences.

If there were NPCs chasing us pirates, they wouldn't catch us -- they'd just make us move so fast that players couldn't catch us either. It would hinder PVP rather than promote it.

Just before you get any ideas, I'm all for keeping CONCORD the way it is in high-sec. It's not about protection, it's about punishment. Though it does act as some measure of protection (due to fear of the punishment). Suicide gankers already get around the faction navies (and also other players) by having instant undock warp spots so that when they're flashy, they can still undock, warp, and warp again to a target picked out by a non-flashy alt. NPCs don't stop the behaviors, they just keep the criminals on their toes preventing other players from having the opportunities to do the job.

Sorry this got a bit off topic -- but I think it's all relevant to NPCs performing security tasks.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#86 - 2013-05-04 12:49:38 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
paritybit wrote:
I do not want to see bounty hunter NPCs or DED strike teams. Players should be doing that. Players are doing that. I'd love to see security and other law-enforcement activities in the hands of players. Where I think NPCs have a role is in serving as a focal point for activity in otherwise unorganized space. I realize this conflicts a little bit with my statements about gate camps, but I just don't see them as adding any interest to the game at all.

Players can't do everything. Honestly, I would like to see players signing up to the DED, but if that doesn't happen I think enforcement NPCs should. EVE is all about the consequences, but unless you majorly **** someone off, the consequences are sorely lacking.


That player interaction is available. The problem is, if players want to run their own security, they head to nulsec. In hisec, it's not our kingdoms, and despite how much we try, we don't really belong to the empires. We're a resource, we're a threat, but we aren't theirs.

In the practical applications, if you take out the NPC 'guards' to hisec and force it to be protected by players (as the TEST pilot keeps insinuating), you're essentially breaking the reason many players are in hisec: casual. I only play an hour or two a day, and don't have time to play with the large alliances as a peon guarding a gate anymore. I wouldn't trust another hisec player who's not in my corp to watch my ass.

I already take measures to keep myself safe, but it lacks that extra effort that nulsec has. That coordination. This is why Concord is in place. To supplement casual players in the way that organization and teamwork supplements nulsec players. But we aren't all that social or organized. So while I don't want hisec to be safer, and like how it's actually more dangerous in all the ways that count than nulsec is, I don't want it to become nulsec without organization.

I'd head back out to nul in a heartbeat, signing my name under someone else's blue flag, and probably get bored and tired of the CTA's again and dealing with the drama and corp/alliance squabbles, and end up plying something a tad bit less time intensive.

It's a bad day when hisec players look into nulsec and suggest changing it to their playstyle. Wanting NPC's to do all their work for them.

It's just as bad when nulsec players look to hisec to change it to fit their playstyle of superior organization, military style teamwork, and hive-mind mentality.

Why can't they remain fundamentally different?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Cari Cullejen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-05-05 02:03:38 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:


Are you stupid? What the hell are you talking about? No wonder Test is fail cascading.


This guy doesn't know what he is talking about. When you look at a standard sanbox you see that it has edges, parts of the sandbox that are important to keeping the sand in whilst giving the child limits. The edges keep the sand from be carried away by wind or being scattered into dust by the child. what YOU want is a beach, but we will need a lot more players before we can achieve that. Also, "theme park MMO?" what do you want, a concentration camp MMO where nobody has any fun? Where everybody is forced to grind without end just to be killed by another player (already how EVE is). Why doesn't EVE just turn into a space/Excel text-based simulator so they can satisfy the single person in EVE online who believes no one should have fun?

I can tell if someone would have suggested the idea of sansha coming into high/low/null sec systems and taking control, you would have fought back furiously.

If CCP see or think of a idea they like, they will implement it. Regardless of whether or not the community would have disagreed with it in the "forums". I don't even know why this was made. One of the most agreed upon posts in the entire forums is the proposed change to the way POS look and feel "modular POSs". That thread has been up for at least a year and CCP still has not decided to implement it.

What are you looking for here? Read the post!
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-05-05 17:23:07 UTC
Ruze wrote:
In the practical applications, if you take out the NPC 'guards' to hisec and force it to be protected by players (as the TEST pilot keeps insinuating), you're essentially breaking the reason many players are in hisec: casual. I only play an hour or two a day, and don't have time to play with the large alliances as a peon guarding a gate anymore. I wouldn't trust another hisec player who's not in my corp to watch my ass.


(emphasis mine)

Wat? I'm not sure what you I said that you interpreted to mean that.

Laying down my complete ideas on how I would like to see the relation between the different security types evolve would take a really long post, so I'll just respond to this specifically. I like that hisec exists for people who want that kind of environment, and I do not want any faction police or CONCORD to be removed. I think it would be pretty neat if players could start integrating into the faction police and CONCORD and (maybe, someday) completely take over their duties, but that doesn't mean I want those duties to change.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#89 - 2013-05-05 17:34:05 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:

Laying down my complete ideas on how I would like to see the relation between the different security types evolve would take a really long post, so I'll just respond to this specifically. I like that hisec exists for people who want that kind of environment, and I do not want any faction police or CONCORD to be removed. I think it would be pretty neat if players could start integrating into the faction police and CONCORD and (maybe, someday) completely take over their duties, but that doesn't mean I want those duties to change.


I have thought about player driven police but I believe it would never work why?
* It would turn EVE game to become work instead of a game where you relax in. Soon you would escape EVE in some other worlds.
* EVE players are too corrupt and the game supports corruption. Police force would not hold together because of drama these facts would cause.

Merely by knowing how hardcore playing can take joy out of games I would be against of real player driven police.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-05-06 16:16:46 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:

Laying down my complete ideas on how I would like to see the relation between the different security types evolve would take a really long post, so I'll just respond to this specifically. I like that hisec exists for people who want that kind of environment, and I do not want any faction police or CONCORD to be removed. I think it would be pretty neat if players could start integrating into the faction police and CONCORD and (maybe, someday) completely take over their duties, but that doesn't mean I want those duties to change.


I have thought about player driven police but I believe it would never work why?
* It would turn EVE game to become work instead of a game where you relax in. Soon you would escape EVE in some other worlds.
* EVE players are too corrupt and the game supports corruption. Police force would not hold together because of drama these facts would cause.

Merely by knowing how hardcore playing can take joy out of games I would be against of real player driven police.


Generally I agree. With the current state of the game, it would be way too much work for players if they entirely replaced CONCORD or Faction police, but I think it would be a cool opportunity for players (especially those into roleplay) if they could join those organizations (particularly DED). It might be a good career choice for players who want to be full-time bounty hunters.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#91 - 2013-05-06 16:38:11 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:

Generally I agree. With the current state of the game, it would be way too much work for players if they entirely replaced CONCORD or Faction police, but I think it would be a cool opportunity for players (especially those into roleplay) if they could join those organizations (particularly DED). It might be a good career choice for players who want to be full-time bounty hunters.


Its curious idea thought I would see it as kind of faction warfare is. Those with hi sec on the otherside those low sec on the other. If you listed to the ded faction you would get faction reward much like in FW of course there would have to be similar to pirates perhaps special skill to scrap better parts from hisec destroyed hulls.

Don't see it as real form of bounty hunting though since bounties are not truly bound to sec status. If you would like to professionalise bounty hubting see to my bounty contract thread on my signature.

I think CCP did great work with the current bounty system but it does not work well enough on its own.
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#92 - 2013-05-06 17:19:13 UTC
OP That's a great general idea. It would also encourage Capsuleer clashes.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-05-06 20:00:18 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:

Generally I agree. With the current state of the game, it would be way too much work for players if they entirely replaced CONCORD or Faction police, but I think it would be a cool opportunity for players (especially those into roleplay) if they could join those organizations (particularly DED). It might be a good career choice for players who want to be full-time bounty hunters.


Its curious idea thought I would see it as kind of faction warfare is. Those with hi sec on the otherside those low sec on the other. If you listed to the ded faction you would get faction reward much like in FW of course there would have to be similar to pirates perhaps special skill to scrap better parts from hisec destroyed hulls.

Don't see it as real form of bounty hunting though since bounties are not truly bound to sec status. If you would like to professionalise bounty hubting see to my bounty contract thread on my signature.

I think CCP did great work with the current bounty system but it does not work well enough on its own.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting anything like Faction Warfare, that already exists. I mean having players do the job that DED does in fiction, hunting down NPC leaders as some kind of mission, and dealing with particularly criminal players at their discretion. It would be particularly interesting if there was some kind of corporation structure (possibly with actual CCP employees in charge at first) that gave them orders regarding how to treat different entities in game, etc.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#94 - 2013-05-06 20:21:32 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting anything like Faction Warfare, that already exists. I mean having players do the job that DED does in fiction, hunting down NPC leaders as some kind of mission, and dealing with particularly criminal players at their discretion. It would be particularly interesting if there was some kind of corporation structure (possibly with actual CCP employees in charge at first) that gave them orders regarding how to treat different entities in game, etc.


It was just an idea that came into my mind. I think there has to be motivator that makes gate campers to move around and not stay in one system but I am not sure if such DED strike force should be it.

What I suggested is not really faction warfare but its what it does most clearly refer to. It would promote hi / lo sec player clash giving possibility for player driven active police force that would hunt down pirates. Anyway it was just and idea :)

Still liking most of the NPC adds to low we definitely need more bits that make EVE space more immersive. Perhaps civilian ships around stations. Food producing ships. Freighters... You name it. Now the space is simply empty and dead.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#95 - 2013-05-07 07:26:58 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?!"
Ellen Ripley

Vaju Enki wrote:
Are you stupid? What the hell are you talking about? No wonder Test is fail cascading.

You seem to be incapable of formulating a reasonable, rational response to anything anyone has said. You appear to just want to insult and goad people rather than actually enter any sort of discussion. It looks very much like you're nothing more than an unintelligent troll who has nothing to offer.

You should probably stop posting.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-05-07 17:54:10 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
[quote=Xavier Thorm]Still liking most of the NPC adds to low we definitely need more bits that make EVE space more immersive. Perhaps civilian ships around stations. Food producing ships. Freighters... You name it. Now the space is simply empty and dead.


This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say "more NPCs" .

Especially as we move toward a time when we can reasonably expect docking/undocking animations in the future, having some of those ships passing by in the background of the new stations actually be civillian ships that have their own jobs and routs to follow would be really cool.

Obviously there would have to be careful balance of any goods transported by these ships, so they don't introduce a dramatic resource faucet into the game, and the numbers couldn't be too ridiculous without negatively effecting the game's performance.

One of the things that really got me thinking about this was that line in the most recent trailer about the clashes between the Empires. I know we are currently living in relative peace, but from what little we see of the Empires' militaries I find it hard to even imagine them fighting a war.
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#97 - 2013-05-07 19:03:21 UTC
I have played my share of MMO's in the past and one of the largest deterrents is getting your ass handed to you in PvP by better funded / experienced players. That is why these games have so much PvE / NPC content.

What I don't understand is why people think all activities should be done by players. No one wants to play a game where because you want to mine all day at peak efficiency means you are automatically prey for others.

Yes is partly risk aversion but it is also human nature to avoid being beat up everyday by someone you have no interest in fighting.

No one wants to log on and be the punching bag or target dummy for someone else. We all want to win, we all want to be the 'hero'. ( Side note, go watch "Wreak it Ralph" awesome flick )

This is why we need NPC's in any game, to take the hits no one wants to take.

Making the low-sec systems more inviting to high-sec players will never be done by other players. I would love to see a fleet form up in high-sec and then invite miners to come out and mine under protection in low-sec. Right now every high-sec miner I know would be calling it a scam. All morality aside shooting defenseless targets that have no means or will to fight is low. Old time sea 'privateers' did not raid ships for the 'lulz' they did it for the huge chest of gold coins in the hold. ( or the Rum )

Sandboxes are not scary, big bullies looming over many parts of it make it scary.

+1

Add more NPC's actions to low sec, give 'carebears' a good reason to try it out instead of the players who do not want to cross the line into ganking crying due to lack of targets.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#98 - 2013-05-07 19:37:57 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:

Especially as we move toward a time when we can reasonably expect docking/undocking animations in the future, having some of those ships passing by in the background of the new stations actually be civillian ships that have their own jobs and routs to follow would be really cool.

Obviously there would have to be careful balance of any goods transported by these ships, so they don't introduce a dramatic resource faucet into the game, and the numbers couldn't be too ridiculous without negatively effecting the game's performance.

One of the things that really got me thinking about this was that line in the most recent trailer about the clashes between the Empires. I know we are currently living in relative peace, but from what little we see of the Empires' militaries I find it hard to even imagine them fighting a war.


I find the lack of feel that the empires should be at war really disturbing. It could be so called 'cold' war but how about we would see carriers near the borders at least? So it seemed that they tried to keep guard up. Now there is no sign of defending against possible threat or anything. Or how about news in captain quarters that would actually show us video pieces from faction war? At first these could be simply npcs fighting against each other but as the players would clash in faction warfare the system could actually generate a real footage of faction war. That would actually make it seem REALLY cool.

Freighters would be cool to see but what they would carry and what kind of guard they had is difficult to say. Yet would love to see them. There is a issue in low sec right now that even the most common supplies like ammo are not accessible it could be that npcs would try to move ammo with indu from some mediun price station in highsec to low. Adding lets say 20% to the price as they would sell them. These would be really small quatities. Only this change could make low sec more popular that you could buy even small quatity of such ammos from low sec and you would not have to go to high sec to get some. This would also promote buying and selling in low sec itself since it would be easy to compete against those prices.

Civilian ships seem to be completely lacking. I hope that it is in CCPs near future goals to add this immersion. They could be just decos on client side around the station or its hangars whatever. So it would not add server load but yet increasing immersion a lot.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#99 - 2013-05-12 01:11:39 UTC
I still want this idea heard. Low-sec means low security, not no security. It's written right there in black and white!

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#100 - 2013-05-12 04:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Felsusguy wrote:
I still want this idea heard. Low-sec means low security, not no security. It's written right there in black and white!


Great minds think alike?

Granted, I was a bit long winded that time, and I don't think most people were able to get my writing style. Needless to say, I agree with your post Blink

Overhaul Dscan!