Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You're missing my point.

You can't compare them.

And your statement has proven my point as well.

You can't compare caldari rails to fed navy rails because they have a different function.
WELL, launchers have a different function than turrets.


Now, the balance issues of hybrid turrets.

This has already been noted by CCP and they're working on it, but it's not a matter of faction aren't as good, it's a matter of hybrids aren't good enough to compete.

However, they're not determining the balance of hybrids based on equalization with launchers.

They're all different and can't be based off one another.

Not to mention each ship makes a difference in the damage output of what it fits and what damage type it does.

Ships aren't even balanced off the stats of other ships.

Ship A has more dps, ship B has more tank, Ship C has more range, ship D has more cap warfare ability, ship e has more jamming capability, ship f is faster, ship g has better agility.

You get my point?

It's not a matter of tomato tomauto.

It's a matter of potato, tomato, grapefruit, pinecone, baseball.

Just because they're all round doesn't mean they're all meant to be eaten or thrown.

They each have their own uses. Same with turrets and launchers.

I've heard enough. Like everyone else said, your compairing apples to oranges. I'm going to go even farther here and say this, your compairing apples too say, pickles, or even better, apples too say, bread. Or more like your compairing a bomb too a gun. They both have a somewhat similar result, they estroy things using explosives, but the way they go about doing it are two TOTALLY different things.

All of the faction variants have beneficial increases over their meta 4 counterparts. AYE, it's not firepower, big woop. Firepower is where the missile systems lack most, unless you have serious skills. Projectiles have issues with tracking, lasers with cap usage, hybrids with range, all issues, all different. The faction's improve upon this. The guns don't need better DPS, they need better ranges or tracking or what not, so the factions choose to improve upon that, not firepower. Missiles on the other hand don't rely on tracking as much, and definitely not range, since they are the longest range weapons in game.

I'll go easy on you, since your obviously newb at this, acting like a typical gallente pilot, whom can't understand why his guns don't do anything: missiles need the firepower to make up for their flgth time. It was never a roleplay bonus, it was never an imbalance, except in the case of hybrids, which gradually grew out of favor because of multiple buffs and nerfs (back in '08, when I first started playing, a blasterthron was the biggest baddest PvP boat around.) It just has too do with base characteristics.

Also, from a ROLEPLAY perspective, yes the Caldari state may be the most advanced, but from a GAMEPLAY perspective you mostly have the same result. Every faction is not equal, 'cept for the bloody gallente, whom they''re fixing. Otherwise it wouldn't work so well, and you'd have people complaining all the time...

Wait...

This is the part you do not seem to get.

The racial faction turrets DO NOT get bonuses to range, tracking, or fitting.
If they did, that would be wonderful . . .




Its not just gallente . . .
Amar/Minmatar/Gallente Faction weapon systems all have about the same bonus relative to their meta 4 counterpart.

The Caldari Missile systems are much better than their meta 4 counterpart



Again the problem that I see

Caldari Missile Systems ARE SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than their Meta 4 Equiv.

The other racial weapon systems are SLIGHTLY BETTER that their Meta 4 Equiv.

This is why Caldari Missile Launchers fly like hotcakes off the contract market and the other faction weapon systems are never used.

YOUR MISSING THE POINT

There's not really a way to explain this to you because you continue to disagree with everyone else posting on here who has said you're comparing two different things that shouldn't be compared.

So we'll try comparing it another way.

We'll compare two ships that use the same turret type, and the same number of turrets, but belong to different races.

(All skills lvl 5, no other modules)
hyperion
8 turret slots
meta 4 350mm - 315 dps
Fed navy 350mm - 377 dps

Rokh
8 turret slots
meta 4 350mm - 252 dps
Fed navy 350mm - 301 dps

WHA?!?!?!?

Why does they hyperion overpower the Rokh? I mean, they're both meta 3 bs's, they both have 8 high slots and 8 turret hardpoints, so why is the hyperion more powerful???

Oh wait, that's right, they're two completely different things with two completely different functions.

The Rokh is a sniper boat while the hyperion is a close range boat.

The Hyperion, fitted with meta 4 turrets, has 14.55% more dps than the megathron.

But the Rokh only has 2.86% more dps than the raven.

The Hyperion has 25% more damage than the Rohk.

The megathron has 12.24% more damage than the Raven.

How is this Fair?

The caldari meta 3 bs is only 2.86% better than the meta 2 bs, while the gallente meta 3 bs is 14.55% better than the meta 2 bs, but the gallente meta 2 bs is already 12.24% better than the caldari meta 2 bs, making the gallente bs 25% better than the caldari meta 3 bs....

Or wait, maybe it's not a matter of damage.....Maybe it's a matter of how they do the damage??

Perhaps they're different because they're designed to be different?

Perhaps their damage is determined by their overall functionality?

Perhaps comparing different items in the game will get you no where in balance?

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You can't base the balance of a turret based off of a launcher.

Balancing is so much more difficult than equal percentages.

Doing so will result in the game having several ships, all with the same abilities.

So essentially, there would be one ship in game, just with different skins.

you have to balance the turrets and launchers while fitted to ships.

then you have to factor the other functions of the ship.

Then you have to factor the speed, range, agility, scan res, warp speed, signature...blah blah blah.

You're trying to suggest balancing one item based off the stats of another item without actually factoring the functionality of the items, the ships in which they'll be on, or the ships in which they'll be fighting against.

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Kill this thread and let the big boys at CCP work on balancing, because your method of balancing will kill the game for sure.

It was intentional. They're balanced based off the ships they go on and the ships they shoot.

However, again, with hybrids CCP is working on fixing them cause they suck.

Everything else is exactly that way on purpose.

Doesn't mean they don't need some balancing, but basing that balance off the % difference from one module to it's meta 4 counter part won't work in the slightest.

Other than hybrids, everything else is working as intended when you fit it on a ship.

yeah, i'm not sure how familiar with launchers you are, but t2 launchers are actually more prefered that faction, even with only t1 or faction ammo.

With all skills lvl 5 and 4 launchers on a scorpion.( all skills V, and not other modules)

You get 4 more dps with faction launchers than you do t2 launchers.
So they're not worth the extra isk that you pay for them vs t2 cruise launchers.

Not to mention with t2 missiles you have the option of high damage or smaller exp radius, which for missile pilots means more effective dps.

Caldari navy launchers aren't worth it to most players, so i dont' know who's buying them.

i know tons of people use faction missiles, but I don't know that I've ever seen someone using faction launchers.

Arbalest launchers are good enough on their own to get you by until you have t2 launchers.

So I'm not sure where you got the info from the caldari launchers sell a lot.

Caldari missiles and caldari ballistic controls on the other hand sell quite a few.

http://eve-central.com/home/typesearch.html?search=cruise+missile

that link is to items bought and sold listed under "cruise missile"

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher doesn't even show up as one of the options.

So like I said, i don't think you're fully informed in this matter. (not trying to offend you)

Caldari missiles and caldari ballistics sell quite well though.

now using this argument one could counter its not that the others are broke its caldari who is. 3 races you want t2 becauss the t2 ammo is worht running, as is the weapons spec damage bonus. Its in fact why I went gun races after starting caldair missile chucker. Your eft dps damage score from ROF you do not get in game unless hitting static targets. If a faster moving target is speed offsetting damage from the cruise.....11% more rof just means you are chipping paint, jsut doing it a bit faster. Others mileage amy vary, me in ravens even with CN launcher trials still relied on drones for these moments.

If they'd fix t2 missile ammo (which have drawbacks across the board, t2 gun ammo is much more user frieldnly in this area for most offerings), t2 would be favored. As it is now.....yes there are marginal gains to CN gear since its a pita to use t2 missile ammo. Minmatar I will pack barrage and hail even for pve. Want to drop that outpost or other structure in the room fast.....get all up close and hail it. I would lobby for damage boost for the weapons specs but I see some imba there......so just wnat t2 missile ammo not gimping fits.

this is why apples and oranges and making everyone the same is bad....3 races have t2 ammo that dsoesn't suck to favoer t2 gun use.. Want all to be the same.....its easier to fix 1 race and not 3.

The answer your looking for is liying in PVP.

Why cause pvp ship mostly use guns and factions guns are quite expensive vs meta 4 and for 0.0 so easy to find also by ratting belts.

So they get very cheap weapons and also very powerfull if not better,,,,hehe they like it enouph

So easy cheap pvp that soud good enouph to me,