These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Build Costs

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#241 - 2013-05-04 15:11:18 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Shadow Lord77 wrote:
Here's a little suggestion: set a flag for every battleship that was put in production before the patch. Then when someone reprocesses that battleship make it reprocess for the amount that it took to build it before the patch. And every battleship built after the patch hit just increase its base mineral amount. None of this 'extra materials' bull dung. It doesn't make any sense lore wise and the production efficiency skill doesn't factor into it, and you can't reprocess it for its newer build cost after the patch hits.

Doesn't that make sense?

so how do you know which one do you buy on the market?:O


It'll be a guessing game. Twisted
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#242 - 2013-05-04 15:28:22 UTC
I was always under the impression that battleship prices were linked to mineral prices which in turn were linked to the mass of the ship built.

I formed that opinion because whenever we've had tiericide in the past and ship stats were nerfed/buffed as appropriate such as the drake gaining mass etc, mineral quantities were also adjusted.

If this is the case then there really is no need to push up prices in the way described by CCP Rise. So if it isn't already done I propose that ship mass be a factor in mineral requirements, after all if you have 2 battleships one that weighs less than another one and as such is properly scaled with less ehp/pg/dps etc then it should cost less.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#243 - 2013-05-04 15:30:56 UTC
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:
Back when i started playing this game in 1950 we did not even have such things as a raven or tempest, but you could still go to the store and buy one for about three fiddy. Now look at it today, when the patch hits they will cost around 500bil and you have to sell your first born into slavery! Think of the children! They will be the ones suffering from this, as they have to fly 4 more lvl 3 missions in order to buy a BS now!


it's 'Tree-fiddy'.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#244 - 2013-05-04 15:34:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Some people have other goals.

So if CCP didn't give us killmails, you'd literally have nothing to play for?


Oh I see :D

You are confusing the common and rational method of choosing ships for PVP with motives to PVP, or play in general.

Expensive and poor performance is a bad combo, and most people stay away from these kind of ships in PVP, and the reason is usually efficiency. Even if you wouldn't care about killboards, losing more money for less gain makes very little sense, and it doesn't even sound like fun imho.



.
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2013-05-04 15:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
Raging Beaver wrote:
My opinion on this is - f...k you.

During the so-called balancing all you do is make cheap, crappy ships more expensive. The whole point to T1 ships was for them to be cheap. Right now they are not and when these changes hit, there will be no such thing as a "cheap" BS.
You're saying it's ok because "we looked into some metrics around player wealth and income and found that EVE players are making money faster and faster". Ok, SOME players make money. I don't, I make YOU money, most of my income comes from buying Plex and selling them for isk. Right now, for one GTC, I'd be able to but 3 (THREE) Abaddons and fit one of them. Sorry mate, but that's not enough. About 8-9 fitted would be ok but not 1 fitted +2 hulls!
As far as I remember, this rebalancing thing was to make every ship useful and used. To make sure that pilots are more eager to engage in PvP activities. Well this is the entirely wrong path! Ships have to be cheap and disposable and not hugely expensive as they are now. Nobody will fight if they need to grind some idiotic plexes only to have crap-for-loot drop from the overseer. Nobody will fight if they need to grind forsaken hubs for 7 hours to fit a damn BS. They will ONLY engage in PVP once they are sure of victory. It is the prices, the out-of-this planet prices, that make people so very risk averse. This is what you want to achieve? Because this is what you will achieve with constant price increase.
Of course you may say that there will be people who will be able to afford it - sure, botters will. They can afford to fly anything they want. They will thank you for it. Good job.

And for all of you that are going to say "then start doing (insert whatever) to earn isk" my answer would be - p... off.

To sum up:
CCP Rise - I absolutely hate this change. Not going to cancel my subscription - don't have one.


+1 and dont forget, they nerfing the BC-s,tier3 BC-s too, give to use 3x prices to faction BCs which have same attributes what they nerfed before.
A 40m faction drake will be 120-150m. They nerfed the drone regions for manipulate mineral prices, they nerfed the rig component salvage incomes,they nerfed the raw materials reprocessing,bring NPC AI for slowing down the incomes, they nerfed the 0.0 anomalies, this happend the past some years.
1.5 year before a t1 BS was 40m, now almost 70m the build price and ~100 the market value.
The 30d plex was 340m but now after 1,5 year 550-600. They incomes sh.i.t, lower than anytime before. I know i playing since 2003.
A single mission runner just suffering after this changes (no matter the 0.0 allies moon goo)
And other thing what will happen with the new players ? Really the will go to PvP or other fun factor, when a fitted BS is half billion ISK ? Oh wait they can use nerfed BC in lvl3 mission, and will be hard to reach for the new players tthe smallest BS too, which will be so expensive and go to use lvl4 missions.
Shame on you CCP.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#246 - 2013-05-04 15:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Gypsio III wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Scenario: A straight up fight between an equally sized Rokh Fleet and Naga fleet over some objective (breaking up a camp on a station, destroying a POS, whatever).

I can't see any plausible scenario where the Rokhs won't easily win.


Agreed, although noting that the Rokh isn't an attack BS...P


A raven and a naga both jump through a gate. Each get tackled by a thorax with a warp scrambler, which closes to close orbit.

The raven deploys EC-300s and also hits the thorax with a heavy neut for good measure, and escapes after a couple of attempts or when the thorax caps out.

The naga dies, friendless and alone... Sad

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#247 - 2013-05-04 15:56:35 UTC
The Raven never even got a lock on the Rax before it was permajammed by ECM drones. Thorax has a cap booster, so the Raven dies, friendless and alone, and cost twice as much as the Naga.

.
Dysgenesis
Dhoomcats
#248 - 2013-05-04 16:01:14 UTC
Are the BPO prices all going to go up to the current price of a tier 3 one?



Also, changes are fine CCP Rise, TYVM.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#249 - 2013-05-04 16:19:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Scenario: A straight up fight between an equally sized Rokh Fleet and Naga fleet over some objective (breaking up a camp on a station, destroying a POS, whatever).

I can't see any plausible scenario where the Rokhs won't easily win.


Agreed, although noting that the Rokh isn't an attack BS...P


A raven and a naga both jump through a gate. Each get tackled by a thorax with a warp scrambler, which closes to close orbit.

The raven deploys EC-300s and also hits the thorax with a heavy neut for good measure, and escapes after a couple of attempts or when the thorax caps out.

The naga dies, friendless and alone... Sad


Naga sees thorax after he jumps in and MWD's back to the gate and jumps back through when the Rax aggresses the Naga.


Raven pilot loses his ship because the Thorax pilot has another friend to jump in, and the raven is too slow to get back to the gate, his tank is too weak and his dps applicability is so beyond garbage to defend himself. The same applies after the laughable raven changes.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#250 - 2013-05-04 16:21:22 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
At least buff the Raven just a little bit so the price will matter. It's not going to be sold.


why the new raven is like the old drake... its going to be great for blob fests in tidi... expect to see shield cruise/mjd raven comming to a battlefield near you.



bwahahahahahahahaha, that is the best joke I have heard all day.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#251 - 2013-05-04 16:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Give every battleship an additional slot and 3k HP. There, fixed.


Your welcome




In all seriousness though, in the eyes of many, you've set the base line at old tier 3 prices, whilst noticeably diminishing the performance of most of the tier 3 battleships. (with minor changes to the lower tiers)

I'm not surprised the value judgements of many are going haywire. What's worse is that battleships now appear to have no point to them whatsoever, want tank, fly commandship/tech3, want dps, fly ABC, want 70% of a battleship for 25% of the price, fly a combat battlecruiser.

This was not the change we were looking for.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#252 - 2013-05-04 16:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Give every battleship an additional slot and 3k HP. There, fixed.


Your welcome




In all seriousness though, in the eyes of many, you've set the base line at old tier 3 prices, whilst noticeably diminishing the performance of most of the tier 3 battleships. (with minor changes to the lower tiers)

I'm not surprised the value judgements of many are going haywire. What's worse is that battleships no appear to have no point to them whatsoever, want tank, fly commandship/tech3, want dps, fly ABC, want 70% of a battleship for 25% of the price, fly a combat battlecruiser.

This was not the change we were looking for.


The caldari lines needs alot more than an extra slot. That was the running joke for the raven ironically.. CCP was like.. Hey we are nerfing your already crap tank and giving you an extra mid to slightly make up for it, all the while failing to address why the ship was garbage in the first place.

Then they gave the scorp an extra low to armor tank ? Then left the scan rez of it at 75mm for an ecm ship? When every other BS has a higher one......Shocked
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#253 - 2013-05-04 16:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
They should just throw away the 2 bonuses per hull rule tbh, I mean, the tempest and hyperion basically get 1 bonus, the scorp 3. They could fix the raven and probably the domi and apoc by just giving them all the bonuses they need to accomplish their role.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#254 - 2013-05-04 16:45:22 UTC
The problem the battleship has is that the only time i would form a fleet of them is if the opponents have them not because they are better than a bc gang.

This is partly because of the
-expense
-lack mobility in fights and moving through systems
- ABC's do the same dps with better projection and mobility for half the price
-bc's still have strong tank and are more mobile whilst having good dps/applied dps

Reason for using them
-because opponent does
-rr armour fleet see above

So to sum up .. ABC's and bc's make battleships mostly a niche ship now where they are only useful against other bs fleets.

so some solutions
- nerf bc's dps and tank
-nerf ABC's dps... possibly make it a T2 hull
-reduce cost of battleships
-buff battleships mobility/tank

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#255 - 2013-05-04 16:50:18 UTC
Thats not an productive post, i usually dont like it, but i need to post it.

I see a pattern in CCP's behavior.

1. They create a feedback thread
2. Spread nonsense
3. Waiting for Feedback
4. Reading 5 Pages
5. Adjusting some Values
6. Call it fixed and be pround, because CCP always listen to pilots
7. Never Look at that thread again, even when 100 Pages have pasted

There is a second pattern:

1. CCP claims something
2. Pilots says its not true
3. CCP says internal research showed...
4. Players asking for the data and results
5. CCP remains silence

Do you see any other patterns?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#256 - 2013-05-04 16:58:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I know a lot of people feel ABC are too strong still, but that's its own issue which we are still watching.


You really aren't nerfing them, are you. This is perhaps even more disappointing than the destroyer rebalance.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#257 - 2013-05-04 16:59:43 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
They should just throw away the 2 bonuses per hull rule tbh, I mean, the tempest and hyperion basically get 1 bonus, the scorp 3. They could fix the raven and probably the domi and apoc by just giving them all the bonuses they need to accomplish their role.


They kind of already threw it away when they started handing out 10% per level damage bonuses on BCs.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2013-05-04 17:18:55 UTC
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
Thats not an productive post, i usually dont like it, but i need to post it.

I see a pattern in CCP's behavior.

1. They create a feedback thread
2. Spread nonsense
3. Waiting for Feedback
4. Reading 5 Pages
5. Adjusting some Values
6. Call it fixed and be pround, because CCP always listen to pilots
7. Never Look at that thread again, even when 100 Pages have pasted

There is a second pattern:

1. CCP claims something
2. Pilots says its not true
3. CCP says internal research showed...
4. Players asking for the data and results
5. CCP remains silence

Do you see any other patterns?


Yup
1.a group finds a good use for a crappy ship,using its advantages
2.ccp nerfs it's stats in the next expansion
3.ccp nerfs it's weapon/items it uses in the next expansion
4.ccp nerfs it's bonuses in the next expansion
5.ccp buffs its counter
6.everybody stops using it ,and probably ruining many other ships in the process
7.ccp calls it balance job nicely done

or
1.players complain about something
2.ccp ask them how they should fix it using plan A or plan B
3a,if most people voted for A ,they go with plan B
3b,if most people voted for B ,they go with plan A
4,ccp says problem nicely fixed,case closed

or
1.players complain that a ship is completly crap
2.ccp says okay we will fix it
3.ccp does a first draft how they want to fix it
it is usually small meaningless buff,and at the same time give it a huge nerf
4.ccp waits for internal and player testing/feedback
5.expansion shiped out without changing anything from the first draft
6.ccp forgets the ship for another 3 years then repeats the process

or the never fading
1.players complain
2.ccp says they are avare of the problem,but they dont have time to fix it until the next expansion ,so they will look at it later,
much later ,much much later, probably in the next decade
ferox with rails anyone?:O
Bertie Dallocort
Doomheim
#259 - 2013-05-04 17:41:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Special Note: You will NOT be able to buy battleships now and then refine them for the increased cost after the changes go live. Like all previous tiericide changes we will use extra materials to implement this cost change.


I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't I just buy a load now and sell the ships themselves off at ~40mil extra later on?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2013-05-04 17:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Bertie Dallocort wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Special Note: You will NOT be able to buy battleships now and then refine them for the increased cost after the changes go live. Like all previous tiericide changes we will use extra materials to implement this cost change.


I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't I just buy a load now and sell the ships themselves off at ~40mil extra later on?

not rly , probably many other people will do that + many will put production lines on, so maybe after a year its price will reach its mineral cost price :)
oh and this assumes that trit price wont drop ,and that people will actually use the ships