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The Paladin
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Frozus Ballius
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-03 08:50:48 UTC
Hey-ho. So basically, im returning to Eve after nearly a year and a half long break from it, and was looking to get some startup capital going to keep my account funded via plexes. Previously i used to use a mix of a t2 fit tengu and a t2 fit paladin to do all my level 4 mission running, however on my return and speaking to a friend who plays eve, he was saying that the paladin (and marauders in general) got hit by the nerf bat/were made redundant.

I was curious as to what exactly was done to them to make them useless (im doing missions in amarr space against raiders/sansha mostly), and if they truly are useless now, what is the current FOTM for missions (im guessing instead of salvaging, its all about blitzing and cashing in LPs, and using ships like machs etc? a little out my price budget, but i can work up toward that)?

or can i still use the paladin effectively for mission running, bearing in mind i'm not really looking for the "serious efficient grinding", just semi casual missions to get some income rolling in for now (still got uni deadlines :| )
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-05-03 09:00:59 UTC
Pali is sitll fine if you arent in it for the blitz grind. Your isk per hour might suffer a bit but you already stated that isnt an issue.

I dont think the mauraders got nerfed its just the noctis was released and basically does the whole salvaging thing quicker. So for some its more efficient to blitz 2-3 missions bookmark and come back with a noctis to hoover it all up.

Check in the Vargur thread for more info on this stuff.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-05-03 09:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Most people prefer using a noctis for salvaging and many Faction BS got boosted, so they offer more DPS(Mach\Vindi) or tracking.

The Paladin isn't this much affected, since the NM is mostly just different in tank type and got more tracking. Effective DPS of the Paladin is the same or even a bit better if you actually run 4 HS + T2 damage rig for L4. After fitting, the NM generally offers more range/tracking by the rig choice, the better tank and faster lock speed. The Paladin however got the utility of the 90% web, the far more stable capacitor(single cap recharger + one ccc is all you need), the tractor beam bonus, the native resistance advantage of a armor tank against blood\sansha, T2 resists for explo\kin and the far bigger cargo for cap boosters\loot\salvage.

Also the Paladin is probably the most flexible BS sized armor tanked Incursion ship, it offers very good DPS at any range between 5 and 150km, got a 90% web, doesn't need any cap mods/laser cap rigs, got 3 utility highs for nos/cap transfer/rr/drone link, it got the extra explo/kin resists where T1 BS mostly need a dedicated explosive hardner and it got a huge cargo to carry ore, ammo, nanite paste, spare fitting and everything you need with you around all the time.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2013-05-03 10:23:30 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
The Paladin however got the utility of ... the far more stable capacitor(single cap recharger + one ccc is all you need)


Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-03 10:57:58 UTC
I wouldn't use a turret ship if you're facing sansha often, TD is going to make you tear your hair out.

Art of Explosions
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-05-03 11:15:52 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
The Paladin however got the utility of ... the far more stable capacitor(single cap recharger + one ccc is all you need)


Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!
Funny. There are entire threads devoted to how Amarr & lasers suck because you can't make them cap-stable.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#7 - 2013-05-03 11:36:20 UTC
Nightmare edges out the pally cause it can fit Tachs more comfortably and with the tracking bonus its projection is unmatched, close to a thousand dps to 45+48km

It would be nice to have a optimal range bonus over the the cap bonus and have the cap bonus built in, all other Marauders get at least 2 bonuses to their main weapon, with an optimal bonus the Paladin will have 800+dps out to 80km or 1100dps to 30km with 4 heat sinks, with excellent tracking because of pulses.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-05-03 11:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Paikis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
The Paladin however got the utility of ... the far more stable capacitor(single cap recharger + one ccc is all you need)


Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!


You mean MOAR damage than 4 HS and T2 Damage rig? Shocked

How about reading the post again, since it seams the message didn't come across the first time? More stable =/= fully stable and rather a measurement in slots for cap mods you would need to realistic fly it w/o a cap booster in L4. That number is 2 on the Paladin and 4 on the NM, even if you could say 3 on the NM since it got a additional rig slot to cover it.
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#9 - 2013-05-03 12:27:00 UTC
I can give you 2 fits, one for beam and one for Pulse lasers. Both arent exeptional pimpfits but do the job well.

[Paladin, Beam]
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

and

[Paladin, Pulse]
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Beam ship is fexible, slow and around 1025 dps with goodisch skills and hammerhead II. Hits up to 700 dps (infrared) at full targetting range (101 km)

Pulse ship is faster and has MWD, 1200 dps at 20 km and hammerhead II, easier for blitzing, can hit max for around 600 at 75 km.

Beam ship costs about 1.75b, pulse 1.35b. Good luck.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2013-05-03 13:09:03 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!


You mean MOAR damage than 4 HS and T2 Damage rig? Shocked

How about reading the post again, since it seams the message didn't come across the first time? More stable =/= fully stable and rather a measurement in slots for cap mods you would need to realistic fly it w/o a cap booster in L4. That number is 2 on the Paladin and 4 on the NM, even if you could say 3 on the NM since it got a additional rig slot to cover it.


First, one cap booster is enough cap for a mission, using any more slots than that is a waste of DPS. Second, there are other DPS mods you can fit (Tracking Enhancers in lows, Tracking Computers in mids, range/tracking/RoF/Damage in rigs).

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Funny. There are entire threads devoted to how Amarr & lasers suck because you can't make them cap-stable.


And they're ALL bad.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#11 - 2013-05-03 14:08:26 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!


You mean MOAR damage than 4 HS and T2 Damage rig? Shocked

How about reading the post again, since it seams the message didn't come across the first time? More stable =/= fully stable and rather a measurement in slots for cap mods you would need to realistic fly it w/o a cap booster in L4. That number is 2 on the Paladin and 4 on the NM, even if you could say 3 on the NM since it got a additional rig slot to cover it.


First, one cap booster is enough cap for a mission, using any more slots than that is a waste of DPS. Second, there are other DPS mods you can fit (Tracking Enhancers in lows, Tracking Computers in mids, range/tracking/RoF/Damage in rigs).

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Funny. There are entire threads devoted to how Amarr & lasers suck because you can't make them cap-stable.


And they're ALL bad.


About 1 cap booster being enough, on a Pally it certainly is, but some ships like the NM need some extra help, especially a T2 discharge elutriation, or else you'll be constantly boosting just to shoot your guns and run your hardeners, some missions force you to tank quite a fair bit putting you in hairy situations.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-05-03 15:41:10 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Cap stability in missions is FAIL. Fit MOAR Damage!


You mean MOAR damage than 4 HS and T2 Damage rig? Shocked

How about reading the post again, since it seams the message didn't come across the first time? More stable =/= fully stable and rather a measurement in slots for cap mods you would need to realistic fly it w/o a cap booster in L4. That number is 2 on the Paladin and 4 on the NM, even if you could say 3 on the NM since it got a additional rig slot to cover it.


First, one cap booster is enough cap for a mission, using any more slots than that is a waste of DPS. Second, there are other DPS mods you can fit (Tracking Enhancers in lows, Tracking Computers in mids, range/tracking/RoF/Damage in rigs).


I have no big issue trading a rig slot that would most likely heavy stack with my 2 TCs if you fit a tracking/optimal rig for the ability to use my cargo for loot and not relaying on a cap booster. I guess this is personal preference, but definitely a bonus for the paladin compared to the Nightmare, that would need more slots to archive this.


Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#13 - 2013-05-03 17:54:43 UTC
Cap stability with laser ships is a problem, either you deal with the annoyance of cap injectors or drop slots to get recharge rate.

And by stability I do not mean forever stable, I mean if I push hard my cap will last more than two minutes. Unless you are perfectly focused, or utterly pimped sometimes you just get a bit more than you can chew and need full guns, full rep/boost and maybe a few other things for 3 minutes plus.

Projectiles/ missles only need to run booster and keep firing even out of cap. Not sure on hybrids do not not anyone who uses them beyond toss in damage on a Domi.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-03 18:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Paladin suffers from the same problems as all marauders, one of them being small grid. Cap booster won't fit with t2 tachs. Even a t2 LAR won't fit. Nor will prop.

So that bad fit has cap rechargers in mids, resulting in 0 TCs. Horrible slowboat with no range and having to switch out of multi for low dps ammo to hit anything. The alternative? Fit fitting mods, and you'll have cap booster, prop, and tracking, but down to 1 heatsink. It's not the fitter's fault, blame the grid...Roll

The Vargur? Don't even think about fitting arty, won't by a long shot fit even stripped. With AC, there's no grid for a BS sized booster and prop. That's AC, the lowest grid gun type in all of Eve. Yeah, marauders have issues.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-05-03 19:30:52 UTC
Marauders are good if you only run one account and aren't in to blitzing.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-05-04 09:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
sabre906 wrote:
Paladin suffers from the same problems as all marauders, one of them being small grid. Cap booster won't fit with t2 tachs. Even a t2 LAR won't fit. Nor will prop.

So that bad fit has cap rechargers in mids, resulting in 0 TCs. Horrible slowboat with no range and having to switch out of multi for low dps ammo to hit anything. The alternative? Fit fitting mods, and you'll have cap booster, prop, and tracking, but down to 1 heatsink. It's not the fitter's fault, blame the grid...Roll


Medium rep and medium cap booster mate. Blink

[Paladin, L4 Magic]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Curator II x2
Hobgoblin II x3
Hobgoblin II x2
Mister Tuggles
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#17 - 2013-05-04 12:02:45 UTC
Frozus Ballius wrote:
Hey-ho. So basically, im returning to Eve after nearly a year and a half long break from it, and was looking to get some startup capital going to keep my account funded via plexes. Previously i used to use a mix of a t2 fit tengu and a t2 fit paladin to do all my level 4 mission running, however on my return and speaking to a friend who plays eve, he was saying that the paladin (and marauders in general) got hit by the nerf bat/were made redundant.

I was curious as to what exactly was done to them to make them useless (im doing missions in amarr space against raiders/sansha mostly), and if they truly are useless now, what is the current FOTM for missions (im guessing instead of salvaging, its all about blitzing and cashing in LPs, and using ships like machs etc? a little out my price budget, but i can work up toward that)?

or can i still use the paladin effectively for mission running, bearing in mind i'm not really looking for the "serious efficient grinding", just semi casual missions to get some income rolling in for now (still got uni deadlines :| )



I have a feeling the marauder class of battleship is going to get a pretty hefty buff at some point. They are also still pretty effective as you can use them for missions, or joining some incursions for more isk.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-05-04 14:24:59 UTC
they should probably just slap on a -15% to pg and cpu requirement for large guns as a role bonus

Art of Explosions
Frozus Ballius
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-05-04 14:57:06 UTC
Sorry for the late response, had been up for nearly 50 hours with uni work, passed out last night till now. <_< anyway, thanks for the replies, helped me quite a bit! im currently using a (more or less) cap stable tach pally (though i have t2 pulses as well for missions that work better with that), simply because like i said, being semi casual and having many disturbances at times where i have to tab out from the game for a few minutes at a time its easier on my mind knowing that i have a constant tank even if i have to go afk like that.


[Paladin, Semiafk-missions]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


Infiltrator II x5
Acolyte II x5



that's what im running (with implants), and statwise i get:

500 defence against raiders, 530 against sansha. cap stable if i turn off one salvage/tractor beam, with t1 multifreq it gives 692 dps, 4850 volley, 796 dps and 5578 volley with faction multifreqs (minus drones that is, drones add another 100 dps), 101 targetting range with tracking speed in the computer.

good enough, or can i tweak it further? it used to be more or less t2 before, but after cashing in rewards, i slowly bought the imperial navy stuff.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#20 - 2013-05-04 16:31:46 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Paladin suffers from the same problems as all marauders, one of them being small grid. Cap booster won't fit with t2 tachs. Even a t2 LAR won't fit. Nor will prop.

So that bad fit has cap rechargers in mids, resulting in 0 TCs. Horrible slowboat with no range and having to switch out of multi for low dps ammo to hit anything. The alternative? Fit fitting mods, and you'll have cap booster, prop, and tracking, but down to 1 heatsink. It's not the fitter's fault, blame the grid...Roll



I agree they need some love, but I used this for quite some time:

[Paladin, tach]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Armor EM Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Ancillary Current Router I


Hammerhead II x5


If you use the MWD a lot, it eats quite a bit of cap boosters, but with its large cargohold, tha's not really a problem

You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)