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Gurista scram/jam/web... really?
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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-02 21:42:46 UTC
You warped at 0 in a drone-less, missile-less, short-range boat in a NPC controlled area well-known for their jamming capabilities

I'd say less unlucky, more silly.

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-05-02 21:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Was just told by a serious vet that this was the most unlucky incident he's ever heard of. He's ratted for years and never seen nor heard of what I described.

So chalk it up to an unlucky fluke. But either way I still say the jamming mechanic needs looking at.


Yes, unlucky fluke. So you just keep flying your large gun naga with no drones and shoot these orbiting scramming frigs.Bear

Some ppl refuse to be helped. But hey, it's no skin off our backs. These aren't our lol lms.Roll

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
You warped at 0 in a drone-less, missile-less, short-range boat in a NPC controlled area well-known for their jamming capabilities

I'd say less unlucky, more silly.


The odd belt rats can't permajam him. These aren't missions or sites, there aren't enough ecm rats in a belt to permajam even a marauder. Jamming wasn't what killed him. His Blaster Naga with TEs, no TC, and no web can't hit the orbiting frigs that he warped to zero on, and Guristas BS rat orbits outside blaster range. The lol ecm whine was just there as an expression of tears and rage.Lol
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2013-05-03 06:47:01 UTC
sabre906 wrote:

The odd belt rats can't permajam him. These aren't missions or sites, there aren't enough ecm rats in a belt to permajam even a marauder. Jamming wasn't what killed him. His Blaster Naga with TEs, no TC, and no web can't hit the orbiting frigs that he warped to zero on, and Guristas BS rat orbits outside blaster range. The lol ecm whine was just there as an expression of tears and rage.Lol


I'm telling you, it was the ewar. I was not only perma-jammed from the second I warped in (even had one eccm module fitted), I was also perma-scrammed and perma-webbed. There was never a let-up until I was dead.

I even messaged a friend who was in game, and asked if he was nearby and could he warp in to help. He wasn't nearby, so it was over 5 minutes (probably more like 10) of me sitting there telling him what was happening as it was happening.

I didn't know this was possible either, until I found out the hard way. I challenge a dev to come in here and say this didn't happen or couldn't happen.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-05-03 11:16:12 UTC
I think I may have found out what happened. Some very funny person (possibly corpmate) was sitting in a falcon and jammed you while you were fighting.

Art of Explosions
Britta Nolen
Sama Guild
#45 - 2013-05-03 11:44:51 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


Well no, not in gurista space as clearly things like this happen if you warp at 0 and get immediately jammed/scrammed/webbed.


Worked in Venal belts.... but then, i also dual boxed and didn't bother targetting frigs.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#46 - 2013-05-03 12:15:48 UTC
keep following in mind:
- only NPC frigs scram and web
- NPC bs jams > cruiser jams > ..., however their elite cruisers and normal cruisers seem to be especially jam happy; never saw their BC jam, and jamming battleships are not very common
- they do have some sort limited of range with jams, however they have very long range, much above typical combat range
- you can warp in reasonably far and they don't aggro immediately, so you can pop frigs from range
- always pop frigs first unless you have very good reason not to (using torps comes to mind)
- keep damage types in mind, basically against guristas putting kin and thermal hardeners should give you enough survivability to keep your tank up indefinitely (if you go to rat, no reason not to be able to tank them indefinitely)
- don't expect your large weapons to do much good in close range against frigs
- if you use attack BC, use mwd and don't warp in to 0, burn away from rats and you should be able to pop frigs while they are at range and burning toward you (their sig does get inflated from mwd and they won't bother keeping angular velocity toward you)
- train up jam resistance skill, it might help a bit
- hm... that is pretty much it

as for 'fun' of being permajammed:
- yea, it is not fun or fair, I guess it was never designed to be fun or fair either (more realistically devs didn't think about it for a while, otherwise they would put in different mechanic in place)
- if they annoy you too much, don't bother with guristas, no other NPCs jam; personally I recommend serpentics
- having alt helps, they tend to focus on one char
hellcane
Never Back Down
#47 - 2013-05-03 13:02:16 UTC
I like this guy's use of logic.

If I go fishing with a kiddie pole in the ocean, and don't catch anything....it's the ocean's fault.
If I go to a drag strip with a minivan, and lose...it's the track's fault.
and so on
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-05-03 13:18:59 UTC
hellcane wrote:
I like this guy's use of logic.

If I go fishing with a kiddie pole in the ocean, and don't catch anything....it's the ocean's fault.
If I go to a drag strip with a minivan, and lose...it's the track's fault.
and so on


Pretty much nail on the head here.

Some of us have tried explaining to the poster that his problem was his ignorance of the game coupled with bad choices based on that ignorance. What we got in return is "no, it's the jamming". I think must of us have agreed to just let him continue to lose ships to Belt Rats :) .
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2013-05-03 15:48:45 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I think I may have found out what happened. Some very funny person (possibly corpmate) was sitting in a falcon and jammed you while you were fighting.


Ha ha, I hadn't considered this. You know, as crazy as it sounds... the explanation does fit the evidence rather well.

Perhaps there's a 'comedian' in my midst.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2013-05-03 15:51:17 UTC
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
keep following in mind:
- only NPC frigs scram and web
- NPC bs jams > cruiser jams > ..., however their elite cruisers and normal cruisers seem to be especially jam happy; never saw their BC jam, and jamming battleships are not very common
- they do have some sort limited of range with jams, however they have very long range, much above typical combat range
- you can warp in reasonably far and they don't aggro immediately, so you can pop frigs from range
- always pop frigs first unless you have very good reason not to (using torps comes to mind)
- keep damage types in mind, basically against guristas putting kin and thermal hardeners should give you enough survivability to keep your tank up indefinitely (if you go to rat, no reason not to be able to tank them indefinitely)
- don't expect your large weapons to do much good in close range against frigs
- if you use attack BC, use mwd and don't warp in to 0, burn away from rats and you should be able to pop frigs while they are at range and burning toward you (their sig does get inflated from mwd and they won't bother keeping angular velocity toward you)
- train up jam resistance skill, it might help a bit
- hm... that is pretty much it

as for 'fun' of being permajammed:
- yea, it is not fun or fair, I guess it was never designed to be fun or fair either (more realistically devs didn't think about it for a while, otherwise they would put in different mechanic in place)
- if they annoy you too much, don't bother with guristas, no other NPCs jam; personally I recommend serpentics
- having alt helps, they tend to focus on one char


Good info here - thanks. What I've been doing since the incident is jumping in with a frig killer, killing the frigs, then jumping out to switch to something more heavy duty. However, it severely cuts into my isk/hour, and I'm also worried about a frig respawn while I'm switching ships.

Perhaps something like a Talos, which has a drone bay, might be useful.
Din Chao
#51 - 2013-05-03 16:41:26 UTC
Well, you're two weeks old, so you should have the skills to fly a BC with large guns effectively... Roll
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2013-05-04 10:59:07 UTC
Din Chao wrote:
Well, you're two weeks old, so you should have the skills to fly a BC with large guns effectively... Roll


That's what I keep trying to tell these people, but they won't listen.

That was a joke, heh.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#53 - 2013-05-06 10:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
drop light drones, set them to agressive, wait a minute and you're done with jamming/scramming/webbing frigs.
If you go ratting with a Tier 3 BS which cant support a drone bay to avoid more expensive BS losses if caught during ratting, you purposely traded that risk to eventually dying to rats.
Roxy Heart
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-05-06 13:39:28 UTC
I also fell into the noob trap of trying to belt rat in an anomoly running blaster naga. There wasn't a rat ECM boat but I had no chance against the frigates as they spawned so close and I simply could not hit. ECM is not the issue.

My tank did not come close to failing. My only concern was that local intel channels started to report a hostile gang a couple jumps out. I was stuck for about 15 mins while a corp mate relogged to an alt, JC'd near my system, fitted a frig killing ship and made the 3 or so jumps to help me out.

Since the embarassing event I have not attempted to get my square peg ( Naga ) into any round holes (Belts).
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-05-09 11:33:55 UTC
Roxy Heart wrote:
I also fell into the noob trap of trying to belt rat in an anomoly running blaster naga. There wasn't a rat ECM boat but I had no chance against the frigates as they spawned so close and I simply could not hit. ECM is not the issue.

My tank did not come close to failing. My only concern was that local intel channels started to report a hostile gang a couple jumps out. I was stuck for about 15 mins while a corp mate relogged to an alt, JC'd near my system, fitted a frig killing ship and made the 3 or so jumps to help me out.

Since the embarassing event I have not attempted to get my square peg ( Naga ) into any round holes (Belts).


lol ....... i never had any problems with belt ratting....frigs go bang in 1 volley (normal and elites alike), u just need to align to reduce transversal...... if frigs orbit at 12 -16 KM hit align and ab to them they`ll break orbit and try to gain orbit range on u and will fly in a straight line....when angular velocity drops under 0.01 on your overview hit F1 and they go boom.
If frigs are orbiting close hit keep at distance (your max falloff range ) and hit ab.... this time they`ll break orbit and try to catch up to you and they`ll fallow u in a straight line and again as stated wait then boom.

You can also align manually .... if u can judge the direction of the npc are moving....might need to use tactical view.

And off course if u are not comfortable with any of this...as u warp in on the belt and u see frigs or elite frigs to close hit warp to a celestial u`ll have time to warp out, and come again at ur desired range.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#56 - 2013-05-09 12:21:53 UTC
Radhe Amatin wrote:
Roxy Heart wrote:
I also fell into the noob trap of trying to belt rat in an anomoly running blaster naga. There wasn't a rat ECM boat but I had no chance against the frigates as they spawned so close and I simply could not hit. ECM is not the issue.

My tank did not come close to failing. My only concern was that local intel channels started to report a hostile gang a couple jumps out. I was stuck for about 15 mins while a corp mate relogged to an alt, JC'd near my system, fitted a frig killing ship and made the 3 or so jumps to help me out.

Since the embarassing event I have not attempted to get my square peg ( Naga ) into any round holes (Belts).


lol ....... i never had any problems with belt ratting....frigs go bang in 1 volley (normal and elites alike), u just need to align to reduce transversal...... if frigs orbit at 12 -16 KM hit align and ab to them they`ll break orbit and try to gain orbit range on u and will fly in a straight line....when angular velocity drops under 0.01 on your overview hit F1 and they go boom.
If frigs are orbiting close hit keep at distance (your max falloff range ) and hit ab.... this time they`ll break orbit and try to catch up to you and they`ll fallow u in a straight line and again as stated wait then boom.

You can also align manually .... if u can judge the direction of the npc are moving....might need to use tactical view.

And off course if u are not comfortable with any of this...as u warp in on the belt and u see frigs or elite frigs to close hit warp to a celestial u`ll have time to warp out, and come again at ur desired range.


Most naga ratters don't haven afterbuners on because that takes up a mid slot on a ship that already has a paper thin tank. While the tactics you mention do work, a pilot with low gunnery skills are still going to have a hell of a time even with 0 or near zero transveral.

So much easier to just use the right ship. If a player wants to rat in belts with a Tier3 BC, he should be using a Talos.
Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-05-09 12:35:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So much easier to just use the right ship.

^ This.

I honestly don't understand what's so difficult about this. I literally do not understand it.
B0XzZ
Pulse Heavy Industries
#58 - 2013-05-10 03:53:09 UTC
This thread is win /
Osiris Andras
Intergalactic Space Maoris
#59 - 2013-05-10 05:58:20 UTC
Sigh... Oh OP your stupidity astounds.

Nobody is saying guristas ewar is fun, because it is honestly some of the most frustrating **** I have ever encountered in a game...

BUT

You HAVE to understand that not being able to perma-tank or ECM the rats was YOUR failure, not the game mechanics. Sure, you might not need to be able to perma-tank or ECM non-jamming rats, but for Guristas, that's something you have to factor in.

Would you take a knife to a gun fight?
Would you try run a level 4 mission in a BC with 2 weeks worth of skills?
Would you try to belt rat guristas without a ship cabable of perma-tank or ECM or both?

Any sane person would answer a big ol' fat NO to all of the above.
You I suspect are not sane, as evidenced by your volitility and inability to understand you are the one at fault here, not a game mechanic.

I have been scram/web/target jammed solid for 15minutes when I was learning L4 missions. But because I coud run my tank indefinately, a window eventually opened where I was able to warp out and come back with friends/warp in to sniping range, etc.
If you warp in at sniping range you should be able to insta-pop a jamming frigate then warp out again before the scramming frigates reach you
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-05-10 07:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Radhe Amatin
Jenn aSide wrote:
Radhe Amatin wrote:
Roxy Heart wrote:
I also fell into the noob trap of trying to belt rat in an anomoly running blaster naga. There wasn't a rat ECM boat but I had no chance against the frigates as they spawned so close and I simply could not hit. ECM is not the issue.

My tank did not come close to failing. My only concern was that local intel channels started to report a hostile gang a couple jumps out. I was stuck for about 15 mins while a corp mate relogged to an alt, JC'd near my system, fitted a frig killing ship and made the 3 or so jumps to help me out.

Since the embarassing event I have not attempted to get my square peg ( Naga ) into any round holes (Belts).


lol ....... i never had any problems with belt ratting....frigs go bang in 1 volley (normal and elites alike), u just need to align to reduce transversal...... if frigs orbit at 12 -16 KM hit align and ab to them they`ll break orbit and try to gain orbit range on u and will fly in a straight line....when angular velocity drops under 0.01 on your overview hit F1 and they go boom.
If frigs are orbiting close hit keep at distance (your max falloff range ) and hit ab.... this time they`ll break orbit and try to catch up to you and they`ll fallow u in a straight line and again as stated wait then boom.

You can also align manually .... if u can judge the direction of the npc are moving....might need to use tactical view.

And off course if u are not comfortable with any of this...as u warp in on the belt and u see frigs or elite frigs to close hit warp to a celestial u`ll have time to warp out, and come again at ur desired range.


Most naga ratters don't haven afterbuners on because that takes up a mid slot on a ship that already has a paper thin tank. While the tactics you mention do work, a pilot with low gunnery skills are still going to have a hell of a time even with 0 or near zero transveral.

So much easier to just use the right ship. If a player wants to rat in belts with a Tier3 BC, he should be using a Talos.


I agree Talos works better for belt ratting.... 5 drones help a lot..... but still naga its not as paper thin as u think.... i run forsaken hubs in a naga with meta 4 blasters with no problem..... shields barely go below 60% and that's if i'm not paying attention.
Or he can use this......What i use for belt ratting when i do it
Highs.
8x Modal Mega Neutron Particle Accelerator Caldari Navy Antimatter (If u can ,use T2 neutron)
Meds.
1x AB t2(i use a faction one more speed)
2x LSE t2
2x Kinetic Hardeners T2
1x Dread Guristas Stasis Web (U can use t2 i just got mine from a drop)
Lows.
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Rigs.
1x Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I(u can drop this for a Burst Aerator if u like or another Core Defense Field Extender)
2x Core Defense Field Extenders
Should be able to tank more then the belt rats can dish out in dps... dishes out 950 dps at 6 optimal 13 km falloff..dmg projection is all most full on cruisers BCs BS's because of the web.
I use this fit when i belt rat as well.....but in the systems i rat in there are hardly any scram web frigs in belts.