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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#621 - 2013-05-03 11:06:56 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:


Ok because you think this is just confirmed by you saying so, i try to give you some actual numbers.



Its not THINK. Its somethign that people that have been here since 2003 remember CCP developers stating. ITs factual, its intentional by CCP, or at least was 10 years ago.

There you go, at least was 10 years ago. Nowadays its just nonsense.
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#622 - 2013-05-03 11:14:08 UTC
I think the amarr 10% bonus to energy weapon cap use should be replaced with a 10% bonus to capacitor size instead.

This would help with the weapons capacitor use, but it would also allow amarr a greater focus on active tanking. The benefit wouldn`t extend to both firing guns and running reppers at the same time, but it would give the tactical option of ending fire and focusing all that extra cap on reppers.

Since CCP is committed to the viability of active tanking this would be a decent way of introducing the amarr perspective on the issue.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#623 - 2013-05-03 11:14:47 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Same goes for you.
Those weapons are actualy not identical in every way. You just focus on DPS and tracking.
And even if you leave that nice Large Armor Rep aside, and fit a plate, you get screwed by a Capbooster that you couldn't fit without another mod.

Just using your numbers :
Dual 250
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1039,5 /43,5 /18K /15k /7,48 /157 /158 /0,0229

Dual Heavy Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218

350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126

Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191

Tachyon Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3340,8 /47,25 /33K /25K /54,15 /170 /452 /0,0174


Do you see the pattern now ?

Just to highlight it more :
Dual Heavy Beam vs 350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail vs Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191

As you can see, stats are very *very* close. So indeed I was wrong and the scale is more as follow :
------------------------- / dual 250mm
Dual heavy beam / 350mm Railgun
Mega Beam / 425mm Railgun
Tachyon Beam / -----------------------

Thanks for showing me my mistake.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#624 - 2013-05-03 11:24:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Same goes for you.
Those weapons are actualy not identical in every way. You just focus on DPS and tracking.
And even if you leave that nice Large Armor Rep aside, and fit a plate, you get screwed by a Capbooster that you couldn't fit without another mod.

Just using your numbers :
Dual 250
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1039,5 /43,5 /18K /15k /7,48 /157 /158 /0,0229

Dual Heavy Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218

350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126

Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191

Tachyon Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3340,8 /47,25 /33K /25K /54,15 /170 /452 /0,0174


Do you see the pattern now ?

Just to highlight it more :
Dual Heavy Beam vs 350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail vs Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191

As you can see, stats are very *very* close. So indeed I was wrong and the scale is more as follow :
------------------------- / dual 250mm
Dual heavy beam / 350mm Railgun
Mega Beam / 425mm Railgun
Tachyon Beam / -----------------------

Thanks for showing me my mistake.


And just cherrypicking again.
So because they are in some points very close you think they are on an equal scale.
The problem is, lasers should use more PG and Cap than Rails because of higher DPS and better tracking.
In your case the 350 Rails use more PG and do better DPS, so definetivly not the same scale.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#625 - 2013-05-03 11:34:22 UTC
And btw. the weapons scale isnt a problem at all.
Tachyons are still unusable on any T1 BS despite the changes.
And even Megabeams are just inferior to any other LR weapon.

Amarr T1 BS still suck **s big time in Caplife and fitting something else than Megapulse.
So its just stupid to argue about weapon scale and Railguns vs Beams.
Beams are unusable at this point and unless CCP gets that fact in their heads, we are screwed.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#626 - 2013-05-03 11:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
And @ Mr Caitlyn. Your PG /CPU on the Hype is wrong.

After Just fitting 425 Rails on that little bugger, you get 7624PG and 417 CPU left.


My bad, for some reason, I had 8 turrets in my head there. You are correct, in which case Hyperion is way out of line here.

Quote:
While Fitting an Abaddon with Tachyons, not just Megabeams, you get -476,4 PG and 322 CPU left.


As I've shown in my previous post on the example of artilleries, Tachyons are in fact an oversized weapon, therefore fitting difficulties are to be expected.

Quote:
And a little fun fact: A Abaddon can't even fit a full rack of Mega Beams + a MWD + a Large t2 Rep. It would need a PG mod for this. All other slots empty btw :) Same goes for the new Apoc.


A little fun fact: Rokh, Maelstrom and Abaddon share this difficulty - in fact, Maelstrom can't even get the 1400mm rack with MWD up without running into the PG wall. Rokh can get the X-Large Shield booster, but the grid is wiped clean and the cap crashes. Again, as above, Hyperion is the only ship standing out here.

I'm not taking sides on the cap, as the information on Hyperion is probably incorrect.

Tldr: nerf Hyperion? :D

Jaina Doombringer wrote:

So its just stupid to argue about weapon scale and Railguns vs Beams.


Respectfully, I disagree. One of the key justifications for cap use of lasers is the fact that they deliver more raw power, therefore it's very important that the lasers remain oversized. How that's achieved is matter for discussion, that it's achieved shouldn't be.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#627 - 2013-05-03 11:40:46 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
And just cherrypicking again.
So because they are in some points very close you think they are on an equal scale.
The problem is, lasers should use more PG and Cap than Rails because of higher DPS and better tracking.
In your case the 350 Rails use more PG and do better DPS, so definetivly not the same scale.

Haha ! You are becoming hilarious !

Dual Heavy Beam vs 350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

So, for 1 (just one, no typo) more PG, 1 (one, or 0,625%) more dps and 1000m (1km) optimale range, they would be on a different scale ?

Funny you. :-)
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#628 - 2013-05-03 11:54:27 UTC
For the fact that they use 1 MORE PG than a weapon thats suposed to use MUCH more PG than 350 Rails, yes. Same goes for the DPS/Alpha.

So Megabeams should get 10K - 15K more range (falloff+optimal), use araound 800PG less and 7 cap per shot less than they do now and lose 4 DPS for that as a traitoff. Than i would agree that 425 Rails are in line with beams.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#629 - 2013-05-03 14:49:58 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
For the fact that they use 1 MORE PG than a weapon thats suposed to use MUCH more PG than 350 Rails, yes. Same goes for the DPS/Alpha.

So Megabeams should get 10K - 15K more range (falloff+optimal), use araound 800PG less and 7 cap per shot less than they do now and lose 4 DPS for that as a traitoff. Than i would agree that 425 Rails are in line with beams.



So for you we should have all races using same weaposn with identical stas basically? Hint that is not balance. Balance is not equality. Equality is boredom.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#630 - 2013-05-03 15:03:48 UTC
No i dont want that. Thats just the answer to Mr. Bouhs coment. Showing him why his conclusion about the size of dual heavy beams is just stupid.

The only thing i would change to Beams in general, reduce capuse and PG requirement to a lvl where Amarr pilots actualy can use their lng range guns on their ships. MegaBeams and Tachyon are far from usable even after the PG and Cap "Buff" from CCP.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#631 - 2013-05-03 15:17:31 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
No i dont want that. Thats just the answer to Mr. Bouhs coment. Showing him why his conclusion about the size of dual heavy beams is just stupid.

The only thing i would change to Beams in general, reduce capuse and PG requirement to a lvl where Amarr pilots actualy can use their lng range guns on their ships. MegaBeams and Tachyon are far from usable even after the PG and Cap "Buff" from CCP.

My conclusions are not stupid, it's just how things are. You may not like or understand it, but that's not a reason for it to be stupid. The numbers YOU provide clearly support what I'm saying : there is no equivalent to dual 250mm railguns with beams, and considering tracking and CPU, mega beams are balanced with 425mm railguns. Tachyons are harder to use because they are better than any other LR weapon.

And actually, Mega Beams will be usable with the changes, eventhough carebears will still need some cap modules to run everything for an eternity.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#632 - 2013-05-03 15:49:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
No i dont want that. Thats just the answer to Mr. Bouhs coment. Showing him why his conclusion about the size of dual heavy beams is just stupid.

The only thing i would change to Beams in general, reduce capuse and PG requirement to a lvl where Amarr pilots actualy can use their lng range guns on their ships. MegaBeams and Tachyon are far from usable even after the PG and Cap "Buff" from CCP.

My conclusions are not stupid, it's just how things are. You may not like or understand it, but that's not a reason for it to be stupid. The numbers YOU provide clearly support what I'm saying : there is no equivalent to dual 250mm railguns with beams, and considering tracking and CPU, mega beams are balanced with 425mm railguns. Tachyons are harder to use because they are better than any other LR weapon.

And actually, Mega Beams will be usable with the changes, eventhough carebears will still need some cap modules to run everything for an eternity.




5-9 minutes of everything running isn't asking for an "eternity" just for somthing that matches what other races are possible of doing. never had to run cap ,modules with any OTHER race to achieve that much time of having cap, why would i need to with the ammar? (you'd think that at least lore wise, they would have the best capacitors to make up for their weaponries cap draw)

Shocked

oops, there i go using common sense againRoll

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#633 - 2013-05-03 16:03:46 UTC
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
5-9 minutes of everything running isn't asking for an "eternity" just for somthing that matches what other races are possible of doing. never had to run cap ,modules with any OTHER race to achieve that much time of having cap, why would i need to with the ammar? (you'd think that at least lore wise, they would have the best capacitors to make up for their weaponries cap draw)

Shocked

oops, there i go using common sense againRoll

I'd like to swap ammo in one second, yet only amarr can do it. Also, insane tracking is more useful than most people think, yet only beams have that.

Why should everything be the same ?
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#634 - 2013-05-03 16:06:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
No i dont want that. Thats just the answer to Mr. Bouhs coment. Showing him why his conclusion about the size of dual heavy beams is just stupid.

The only thing i would change to Beams in general, reduce capuse and PG requirement to a lvl where Amarr pilots actualy can use their lng range guns on their ships. MegaBeams and Tachyon are far from usable even after the PG and Cap "Buff" from CCP.

My conclusions are not stupid, it's just how things are. You may not like or understand it, but that's not a reason for it to be stupid. The numbers YOU provide clearly support what I'm saying : there is no equivalent to dual 250mm railguns with beams, and considering tracking and CPU, mega beams are balanced with 425mm railguns. Tachyons are harder to use because they are better than any other LR weapon.

And actually, Mega Beams will be usable with the changes, eventhough carebears will still need some cap modules to run everything for an eternity.


funny... dual heavy beams balance around dps and tracking, megabeams around tracking and CPU. cherrypick more.

PG and Cap use is always HIGHER on lasers, as a traitoff for higher DPS, ALPHA, TRACKING than Rails.
Thats why 350 Rails are never ever on the same "scale" than Dual Heavy Beams.

Megabeams need a PG mod to be fitted. If you use a Large Rep, or Plates and Capboosters doesn't matter. With an MWD fitted both choices need a fitting mod. And Capwise Amarr are also screwed beyond any sane point.
So despite your point of scaling just for the sake of scaling, there is no reason why amarr shouldn't be able to use 2 of its 3 long range weapons on its own battleships.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#635 - 2013-05-03 16:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Jaina Doombringer wrote:

funny... dual heavy beams balance around dps and tracking, megabeams around tracking and CPU. cherrypick more.

PG and Cap use is always HIGHER on lasers, as a traitoff for higher DPS, ALPHA, TRACKING than Rails.
Thats why 350 Rails are never ever on the same "scale" than Dual Heavy Beams.

Megabeams need a PG mod to be fitted. If you use a Large Rep, or Plates and Capboosters doesn't matter. With an MWD fitted both choices need a fitting mod. And Capwise Amarr are also screwed beyond any sane point.
So despite your point of scaling just for the sake of scaling, there is no reason why amarr shouldn't be able to use 2 of its 3 long range weapons on its own battleships.

They can use dual heavy beams and mega beams with the PG buff. Problem solved.

Also, why should everything be balanced around exactly the same things ? To be easier for you ?
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#636 - 2013-05-03 16:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaina Doombringer
No they can't use Megabeams.
Just with a fitting mod and massive cap mods or an a..load of boostercharges.
Problem not solved at all.
And thats the point all Amarr players complain about.
We suck ourselfs dry in under 4 minutes just with guns and without a fitted MWD.
With MWD goodbye guns in under 2 Minutes where Gallente just keep firing.
Despite Tachyons still not usable at all. Exept a BC, a Pirateship and a Marauder(after the changes).

WE JUST WANT TO USE OUR GUNS !!!!!
If you call it balance that we can use them fine, then yes i want every battleship gun to be equaly usable by its own race.
Btw this would be realy balanced Twisted.
Damage, Tracking, Ammotypes aren't even a point of our complaints, and these are the real balancing factores to me.
But hey, i do it like the rest of the amarrians and put you on block because you do not understand why we complain and are just unwilling to see these problems. Maybe they are right and your just a troll, dunno.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#637 - 2013-05-03 16:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
This shoud fit fine :

[Abaddon, Beam]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Problem solved.

Maybe you're talking about pve ? This should fit just fine :
[Abaddon, pve_lvl4]

Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Problem solved.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#638 - 2013-05-03 16:32:01 UTC
Yep by just using a Cruiser Capbooster and a normal adaptive plate due to to tight cpu for another EANM.
Realy nice fit... NOT
Compared to the countless fitting options the Hyperion gets due the ultra low fitting costs of Rails its just hillarious that you realy think that Mega Beams are well balanced.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#639 - 2013-05-03 16:56:39 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Yep by just using a Cruiser Capbooster and a normal adaptive plate due to to tight cpu for another EANM.
Realy nice fit... NOT
Compared to the countless fitting options the Hyperion gets due the ultra low fitting costs of Rails its just hillarious that you realy think that Mega Beams are well balanced.

So not only you want to fire your guns without any compromise, but you also want to fit anything you want without a thought ?

Have you ever heard about fitting choices ?
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#640 - 2013-05-03 17:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaina Doombringer
Last answer before i hide you.

Guns ONLY without compromise YES, as every other race can do.
To fit anything without a thought, no. Thats nothing i asked for.
Just to fit my Guns without having no choice at all exept one gimp fit isnt balance at all.

The part you mention is just a simple comparison of Beams on an Abadon vs Rails on a Hyperion. Just a fact how it will be after the change.
Abaddon gimped fitting fith Capproblems vs Hyperion a wet dream in any fittingpants without Capproblems.

But so long, troll on.
Your hidden for me as for most amarrians from now on.