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Walking around in station is it dead?
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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#41 - 2013-05-03 15:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Varius Xeral wrote:
I literally just said it was a declarative statement, an opinion, in the very post you quoted.


Your calling me a moron, when you can't even tell what an opinion is..

Varius Xeral wrote:
Most of us don't care about WiS


This is you declaring that most people don't care about WiS. A statement that requires backing up. "I don't care about WiS" would have been an opinion.

Edit;

Varius Xeral wrote:
To be absolutely clear, by "most of us" I was actually referring to those who openly speak against WiS, not the playerbase as a whole, but all my following points stand regardless of that quibble.


You can back track all you like. If that was really the case, you could have made that clear in the next post. But you didn't. You tried to look smart, and failed miserably.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#42 - 2013-05-03 15:00:49 UTC
It's not dead, just in cryo sleep.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-05-03 15:04:22 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
I literally just said it was a declarative statement, an opinion, in the very post you quoted.


Your calling me a moron, when you can't even tell what an opinion is..

Varius Xeral wrote:
Most of us don't care about WiS


This is you declaring that most people don't care about WiS. A statement that requires backing up. "I don't care about WiS" would have been an opinion.

Edit;

Varius Xeral wrote:
To be absolutely clear, by "most of us" I was actually referring to those who openly speak against WiS, not the playerbase as a whole, but all my following points stand regardless of that quibble.


You can back track all you like. If that was really the case, you could have made that clear in the next post. But you didn't. You tried to look smart, and failed miserably.


I've explained everything that needs explaining for you to understand what has just transpired here. That you can't or won't is no longer my problem.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-05-03 15:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Now, we the players who support WiS, could throw a temper tantrum just like the spaceship kiddies did two summers ago, and try to force CCP in a new direction. But frankly I don't think we're that childish.

Leveraging your market power to improve how much bang you get for your buck is not childish, it's business.

I guess you also laugh at all the childish people who pretend to refuse buying a car at sticker price in order to get a discount or free extras. "LoL, do they think they are in theater club or what?"

.
Lina Alar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-05-03 16:14:51 UTC
I was at Fanfest. I remember when Hilmar asked the question and most of the people sitting around me looked around and were too reticent to cheer or raise their hands for fear of being clubbed by the guys squeezing the bee squeaky-toy. Many of the people I talked to at Fanfest (including myself) want more WiS content, but certainly not at the expense of FiS.

An explanation of Eve socialization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTbgvYPVdXE

Lick with your main™
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#46 - 2013-05-03 16:24:52 UTC
Lina Alar wrote:
...but certainly not at the expense of FiS.

This.

Also, we'll get WiS as an addon once Murder in Station(TM) and Scamming in Station(TM) are ready to be delivered Twisted.

Remove standings and insurance.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#47 - 2013-05-03 16:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Now, we the players who support WiS, could throw a temper tantrum just like the spaceship kiddies did two summers ago, and try to force CCP in a new direction. But frankly I don't think we're that childish.


You're not old enough (on this character anyway) to have experienced the terribad expansions that came out before Incarna. The thing that killed WiS wasn't that it was WiS, but that it was hyped so highly for years (like what, 2?) and then completely failed to deliver, coupled with a terribad rollout of a not-sow-micro transaction store, and some rather scathing leaked internal documents.

Ways CCP could have had this go better (obviously, not exhaustive).


  • more and better communication -- hell even "OK guys, we've locked Soundwave, Hilmar, and [people] in a conference room, we'll let you know what's going on soon as we can"
  • no devblogs talking down at us, Zulu
  • Something public right after "Greed is Good"
  • Not over-hyping and under-delivering


Quote:

If you think this can't work, go and download and play Pirates of the Burning Sea. It has ship vs ship combat, with boarding action that is avatar-based. The game overall is weak and small and deeply flawed, but that part of it - ship combat and avatar combat working together - is pretty well done for such an old game. EVE could have it too.


Not on its own, but that's where DUST comes in. Really this comes down to "you're locked in a capsule in order to pilot the ship".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#48 - 2013-05-03 16:37:20 UTC
WiS might make more sense as a second plug-in game like DUST. Something like second life in space where people can build up and design fashion and social stuff but can't into space.

Or they develop World of Darkness first, having social interaction as a stand alone game and then from that experience can evaluate which parts would make sense in EVE.

Or maybe both. It's always good to blur the lines.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Velicitia
XS Tech
#49 - 2013-05-03 16:38:48 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Lina Alar wrote:
...but certainly not at the expense of FiS.

... Scamming in Station(TM)


I do believe that's generally called "The Market".

Edit -- also, "Contracts".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-05-03 16:46:54 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
You're not old enough...


This is an important point. I highly doubt WiS would have the negative connotations it does if even what little was released had not been done so with everything that came with it, as you described. For example, if the odyssey changes had also come with the additional baggage that WiS did, then those would become pariah subjects for the next x amount of years, just by association.

For WiS to gain wider acceptance it either needs a clear and decisive vision articulated that disassociates it from the previous disaster or to simply wait until people get over Incarna as a whole and WiS by association.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Lina Alar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-05-03 17:12:56 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
You're not old enough...


This is an important point. I highly doubt WiS would have the negative connotations it does if even what little was released had not been done so with everything that came with it, as you described. For example, if the odyssey changes had also come with the additional baggage that WiS did, then those would become pariah subjects for the next x amount of years, just by association.

For WiS to gain wider acceptance it either needs a clear and decisive vision articulated that disassociates it from the previous disaster or to simply wait until people get over Incarna as a whole and WiS by association.

The simplest way would be for avatar objects (clothing, accessories, mods) to be destructible and player-made. That would loop them into the economy better than "I broke up a Plex to buy this, pay me ISK for it" after-market we currently have. Granted, faction store rewards isn't a bad way to go either.

The biggest catch for CCP would be that they'd need to dissociate what clothing and items the avatar is currently sporting from what appears in the portrait, but I think this should be done anyway.

An explanation of Eve socialization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTbgvYPVdXE

Lick with your main™
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-05-03 17:16:53 UTC
StoneCold wrote:
Why would you want to walk like a dustie while you can ride your whirlwind of fire?


+1 If i wanna walk I'll go outside. What I can't do is fly fusion powered mile long space ships outside, thus I play EVE Cool
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-05-03 17:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Lina Alar wrote:
The simplest way would be for avatar objects (clothing, accessories, mods) to be destructible and player-made. That would loop them into the economy better than "I broke up a Plex to buy this, pay me ISK for it" after-market we currently have. Granted, faction store rewards isn't a bad way to go either.

The biggest catch for CCP would be that they'd need to dissociate what clothing and items the avatar is currently sporting from what appears in the portrait, but I think this should be done anyway.


Ask ten different WiS supporters what it means to them, and you'll get ten different answers. Probably the most amorphous concept currently discussed.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#54 - 2013-05-03 17:22:21 UTC
Kimberly Menage wrote:
its like COME ON its walking every other game and there mama walks in them why not this one about time 10 years and all we do is stand there or walk with a mouse cant even use the keys.


You can use WSAD. You just have to click outside of the chat box.
Bolow Santosi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-05-03 18:24:27 UTC
Arduemont wrote:

This is you declaring that most people don't care about WiS. A statement that requires backing up. "I don't care about WiS" would have been an opinion.



I guess the summer of rage, a significant drop in subscriptions, and an emergency summit of the CSM to unfuck Incarna was just everything else but WiS and not a response to it.

The community spoke 2 years ago and it was a pretty loud "No".
Tootenh'amon
#56 - 2013-05-03 18:30:56 UTC
Bolow Santosi wrote:
Arduemont wrote:

This is you declaring that most people don't care about WiS. A statement that requires backing up. "I don't care about WiS" would have been an opinion.



I guess the summer of rage, a significant drop in subscriptions, and an emergency summit of the CSM to unfuck Incarna was just everything else but WiS and not a response to it.

The community spoke 2 years ago and it was a pretty loud "No".


It was a "No" to a widely promoted expansion with no content, not to incarna (limited as it was) itself.
Lina Alar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-05-03 18:43:35 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Lina Alar wrote:
The simplest way would be for avatar objects (clothing, accessories, mods) to be destructible and player-made. That would loop them into the economy better than "I broke up a Plex to buy this, pay me ISK for it" after-market we currently have. Granted, faction store rewards isn't a bad way to go either.

The biggest catch for CCP would be that they'd need to dissociate what clothing and items the avatar is currently sporting from what appears in the portrait, but I think this should be done anyway.


Ask ten different WiS supporters what it means to them, and you'll get ten different answers. Probably the most amorphous concept currently discussed.

I was addressing "dissociation from the previous disaster". The fact that we got little fish tanks for our characters to sit on a couch in was a huge problem, because the trailer showed players interacting in station environments. I still want that experience from the trailer. But the chief problem with what they did deliver (as opposed to what they didn't) was the NeX and taking things out of the player's hands.

An explanation of Eve socialization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTbgvYPVdXE

Lick with your main™
Velicitia
XS Tech
#58 - 2013-05-03 18:46:05 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
You're not old enough...


This is an important point. I highly doubt WiS would have the negative connotations it does if even what little was released had not been done so with everything that came with it, as you described. For example, if the odyssey changes had also come with the additional baggage that WiS did, then those would become pariah subjects for the next x amount of years, just by association.

For WiS to gain wider acceptance it either needs a clear and decisive vision articulated that disassociates it from the previous disaster or to simply wait until people get over Incarna as a whole and WiS by association.



Definitely. It wasn't "WiS" that failed miserably, it was Incarna as a whole. The problem is that because Incarna was the "WiS" release, the feature itself was tainted.

Now, with the release of Odyssey ... we'll have gotten our promised 18 months of "little things" fixes that CCP promised.

From the sound of things, CCP Seagull has an amazing journey planned for us. Can't wait to see where her vision leads.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#59 - 2013-05-03 18:47:53 UTC
Lina Alar wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Lina Alar wrote:
The simplest way would be for avatar objects (clothing, accessories, mods) to be destructible and player-made. That would loop them into the economy better than "I broke up a Plex to buy this, pay me ISK for it" after-market we currently have. Granted, faction store rewards isn't a bad way to go either.

The biggest catch for CCP would be that they'd need to dissociate what clothing and items the avatar is currently sporting from what appears in the portrait, but I think this should be done anyway.


Ask ten different WiS supporters what it means to them, and you'll get ten different answers. Probably the most amorphous concept currently discussed.

I was addressing "dissociation from the previous disaster". The fact that we got little fish tanks for our characters to sit on a couch in was a huge problem, because the trailer showed players interacting in station environments. I still want that experience from the trailer. But the chief problem with what they did deliver (as opposed to what they didn't) was the NeX and taking things out of the player's hands.



Link? I remember the Incarna Trailer being "I was there" ... or was that the FF 2011 "EVE Forever" video you're thinking of?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#60 - 2013-05-03 19:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
The problem with WiS and incarna wasn't that it was just bad. Of course it was bad, it had one character that could walk around alone in a room and you could do 2 things: sit on a couch and look in the mirror. Oh and they removed the classic ship spinning interface. And thousand dollar pants. But I digress.

The problem with WiS and incarna wasn't that it was just bad. It was that the 3 expansions prior to that were also bad in terms of spaceship content. So you had 4 expansions, in a row, with little to no space ships content. And no spaceship content planned for ~18 months~ after incarna. So another 3 more expansions (where we're at now) with no spaceship content.

That **** just doesn't fly in a spaceship-centric game.