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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

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Asking for feedback on Certificate visibility

First post
John 1135
#21 - 2013-05-03 12:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
I guess my immediate response is


So you know, corps and alliances can configure certs for their key doctrines, and then they'll want players to display them. And having Elite in skillsets your alliance expressly desires will afford meaningful bragging rights.
Debora Tsung
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-03 12:54:46 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates

That is actually a great idea. +1

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Claire Raynor
#23 - 2013-05-03 12:57:33 UTC
They are nice. I get a warm feeling when it pops up and says I have a new certificate. I used EvEMon to try and work out how I could get the most Certificates in one go once by doing a REALLY stoopid skill queue - (I think I got 7 at once or something).

But other than that - Certificates need a game play function to get used more. I've never seen someone displaying their certificates - except for pirates listing industrial sounding certs for lols.

Information is power in EVE - and Certificates give power away. If you see me in a Hybrid ship - well - I don't want people to know I have virtually ZERO hybrid weapons specific skills - etc.

And I can't think of a way of introducing Certificates into the game mechanic that will not give a bigger advantage to higher SP players. . . . .

I mean - If you had the A++ Ship Parking Certificate - you might be able to get slightly reduced Insurance Premiums?

If you ever Expand WiS - and this is a brain fart idea - but you could have "Clubs" that you could only enter if you have say Elite Cert in this or that ? - but it isn't really Game Play that's vanity stuff

Maybe - Certs could get you access to different Clothes from the Nex Store? - Maybe you could get different haircuts or tattoos or something.
Debora Tsung
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-03 13:01:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Remove the ability to set Certificates as public

  • Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc.

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

    John 1135
    #25 - 2013-05-03 13:07:59 UTC
    Debora Tsung wrote:
    Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc.


    So I'm imagining here certificates that are created by your corporation/alliance, and can be made visible to only your corp/alliance so they can see what their pilots can do.

    A finesse would be a Corp Certs View, that lets appropriate officers get the count of pilots with each of their custom certs. So they can see how well prepared they are to fly given doctrines (and can use that to plan new ones).
    C DeLeon
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #26 - 2013-05-03 13:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: C DeLeon
    Debora Tsung wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates

    That is actually a great idea. +1

    Costumizable certificates by corporations/alliances where only our corp/alliance members could see it would be usefull. This way we could see what members what fleet doctrines can fly. General public certificates visible only for corp/alli members could be also usefull.

    For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but don’t mention to which fields they apply – for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.

    I don't like it. The whole point of holding back information is to make ourselfs more unpredictable for the enemy. More info about a players capabilities removes meta form the game and the importance of intel gathering.
    On the other hand shared corp/alliance notes on a character's info window could be usefull. We have many mails about awoxers, baiters, hotdroppers and cynoalts because this is the easiest way to warn alliance members about tricky characters with dirty tactics. Shared notes could make such things easier.

    Also ship skins for the general certificates and people will start caring about it \o/

    edit: One more thing about the characters info window. The "bio" tab should be the last instead of the first. When we opening a charcters info window it always shows a different tab depending on if the character have bio or not. It can be annoying when we want to figure out fast a characters age, history, or personal notes.
    Unforgiven Storm
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #27 - 2013-05-03 13:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
    Reuse the certificate system and transform it into an achievement system, then you can make it public at will.

    ...But if achievements is something that will not happen, my recommendation is:

    Their main focus should be about guiding someone to choose the skills that needs to fly a ship x, so instead of having this complex matrix of certificates you have today, drop them all.

    Create flight certificate for each ship that lines up all the different levels of training you need to fly it (basic, standard, elite) and that is it.

    Then you should be able to drag the basic rifter flight certificate (example) to the skill window and this window fills up with all the rifter skills and plans for its training even if it goes above 24 hours and this is the only exception to the 24h max, you choose or drag and drop a certificate to the skill window and the skill queue will follow it to the end.

    That will be cool and will bring certificates back to being a useful tool.

    PS: if the skills are not injected, if they are in a hangar that belongs to the user, inject them automatically, if not, bypass the training.

    Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

    DTson Gauur
    #28 - 2013-05-03 13:43:29 UTC
    Just remove the whole lot, they're useless in their current incarnation.

    Totally unrealistic and utterly obtuse targets for certificate X and so on.

    Remove, THINK about how to make them actually usable, THEN bring them back.
    Mole Guy
    Band of Builders Inc.
    #29 - 2013-05-03 14:07:23 UTC
    i have 2x 2003 toons and a 2004.

    one is indy mostly, one is a mix and one is mostly pvp.
    if i am on my miner/drone ratter, i dont want anyone looking to see my missile skills are crap, gun skills are crap, i have good gallente bs and max drone skills, maxed mining and manufacturing skills. they automatically assume they can take my toon and it aids them by encouraging them to stalk me down.

    now, if i am playing possum in my pvp main, i dont want someone to look in my cert planner and see i have 132 rank 5 combat/pvp skills but i am flying an itty 5... can you say "A TRAP!" ?


    ccp seems to be making this gme so that the stalkers can prey on those who wish to play. if i wanna pvp, i want it on my terms. i want to dictate who does what and when. i dont want someone flyin around checking certificates to see who they could easily gang and who to leave alone. personally, i assume everyone who comes into nul sec is ready for war and the know their shyt.
    i dont even check their planner. i check corp history to see who they are with. goons? i suspect someone else lurkying around the corner. noob corp? they are a cyno for a hotdrop.

    the concept of making these planning tools was good. it "should have helped" newer people. to me, they are still kind of conflicting. one doesnt need ALL the skills of a certain tree to be effective in a certain style ship. with the tools we have now, one can tailor make a toon to be just as lethal as mole is in 1/16th the time (in a particular type of ship). now, the benefits of being old is i can jump in ANY sub cap and almost be maxed out. time in game...
    certificates almost did their jobs, but evemon and others help more.

    to force someone to display his training invites trouble for the someone.

    if you want to do that, please allow the option to give ALL certificates back. to me, they were a novelty item.
    but i do not want someone sable to gain ANY info on my toons what-so-ever until they start taking damage and realize that they should have stayed in station.
    "oh crap! this isnt the indy toon!"
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #30 - 2013-05-03 14:11:06 UTC

    In my opinion, there's very little motivation to bother messing with the certificate display settings...
    --- They don't alter your character's appearance.
    --- They don't provide any reliable, easy-to-access, utilizable metagaming information. For example, api keys provide full account information, including skills which is far more useful for recruitment, killboards provide combat prowess, and more importantly, previous ship fittings and fighting style/associates.

    There's very little reason to "display" certificates, and so people simply don't bother to display them.

    On thing that will make certificates more useful is to allow training a certificate level in the skill tree....
    ---- What I mean by this, is training a certificate will simply auto-queue all related skills. Have this be the only way to add/train multiple day+ skills.
    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    #31 - 2013-05-03 14:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
    What value add does certificates add to the game? Right now the are pretty much useless and I think the question you should be asking yourself is what you are trying to accomplish with certificates. The certificate system provides almost no value add because they do not line up with the skills to fly ships for doctrines.

    Personally I would like to see the certificate system scrapped and replaced with a tool that allows mentors, CEO's, and FC's to help newer players out. When i want to determine the capability of a new pilot and how they fit into my fleet, I have to look at the various pre made fits and see what the pilot can fly. The certificates tell me very little. With the API I can pull all the the pilots skills and determine 1. Can the pilot fly the ship and 2. How appropriate it is for the pilot to be flying the ship.

    This about this. A pilot just joins a corp and is looking through the corps fittings. In the list of fittings he sees 1-5 pips (much like skills) next to each one letting him or her know how well they can fly that particular fit. The FC can tell them to pick a fit that you have at least X number of pips in. In addition in the fleet composition window, the FC can see the pips next to each ship so if someone shows up in a ship that they can't fly really well, he can fix it (by either having them switch out or kicking them from the fleet).

    This is just an example but it illustrates that we need a system that allows for more streamlined interaction between players. The certificate system is a solo feature. We want something that helps use organize our corp and fleet members. Please put your development and design resources on that.
    Ace Echo
    The Shadow Raiders
    Intergalactic Space Hobos
    #32 - 2013-05-03 14:11:58 UTC
    I understand that your team's goal is to tweak the visibility of Certificates to make it a more used and enjoyed feature... but it seems most people agree that the problem with certificates is with much larger issues that probably aren't the scope of this thread.

    I'm CEO of a corp that deals with a lot of newbies... any growing corp nearly has to with the current recruitment market, and I gotta say certificates are a very good feature in that regard. Experienced players quickly outgrow it, but it's a great help to be able to look at a ship you want and know what to train for with the certificates. Most certificates I've seen are decently constructed, emphasizing support skills as much as the prereq skills, discouraging the common "Newbs rush to a megathron, train just the prereqs, then wonder why the can't run lvl4's" scenario.

    The only bullet point I really like is the last one. The rest I wouldn't mind but I don't think they'd be used much and would not be an effective use of devtime. The problem with certificates is that past the newbie stage they really don't mean much at all.

    If you can milk it, it's an udder.

    Nagarythe Tinurandir
    Einheit X-6
    #33 - 2013-05-03 14:23:14 UTC
    currently certificates have no value except telling your enemy how much sp your character may have based on wether you made them public or not.

    a cool thing would be (as already mentioned by others in this thread), if certificates would be given to you by other players, e.g. the CEO of your Corp.
    they could still be skill based:
    for example to satisfy the requirements for fleet doctrine certificate ABC the player needs skills abc+xyz
    once the player meets those requirements it can be awarded to the player by the ceo of his corp or whatever.
    a nice window in corp managment could for example show which dudes still haven't caught up with the doctrines your corp has.

    they could show that you mastered a certain style of gameplay
    e.g. certificate in fast tackling. awarded to players who have proven a dozen times, that they know how to use an interceptor or whatever. it could additionaly show how much game time you've spend e.g. tackling and or in how many kills your tackling resulted. that may be a good addition for the corp applying process. having something like a résumé-page where your accomplishments are listed.

    maybe a combination of both?

    either way
    certificates should be a player-controlled feature. if a certificate would show, who issued it, there would be actually an incentive to create a "market" for certificates. Corps like EvE-University would profit a lot from a feature like this. Depending on who issued the certificate they could mean more (or less).
    Zloco Crendraven
    Shadow Cartel
    #34 - 2013-05-03 14:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
    Atm certificates are used only by new players. Quite a few newbies are guided by certificates. Imo the whole UI should be done and made somehow more simply. do them according professions, ships and fleet roles. Tips how to do that profession or how to fly a ship sould be included in those certs.

    Ex. If u want to be a trader u go for these ships and skills.
    Ifu like to kite, brawl, logi, ewar, bootser, active or passive tank u should find those skills in certs with role explanations.

    2nd reason is for bragging. So transform the certificates in some kind of fun achievement system.

    And as 3rd certificates shuld be configurable and able to be saved. If u save a cert about a certain ship or role. That cert should be visible on the ship cert tab or all ships that fullfill that role.

    Shrotly, certs should be an igame evemon with some ship, fleet role and proffession presets.

    BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

    Omnathious Deninard
    Ministry of Silly Walks.
    #35 - 2013-05-03 14:47:49 UTC
    Make Certificates display in your CC on a wall or holographic display on your coffee table.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #36 - 2013-05-03 14:59:43 UTC
    Could we have configurable certificates please?

    In Test we have a 30 day newbie plan, a 104 day plan, a special set of skill requirements in order to be eligible for certain ships (eg recons, logi, foxcats) and a set of required skills to be a cap ship pilot.

    It would be great if we could simply take the certificate off a central place, see what skills we still need to train to qualify and/or see if pilots claiming for reimbursement meet the skill requirements.

    It's a sandbox game - let's have player-created certs as well as CCP-created ones. I'm sure organisation like Eve Uni and RvB would love such a feature.

    I write

    I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #37 - 2013-05-03 15:04:48 UTC
    The certificate is useful for new players. Help them know the name of all the related skills if they want to improve their gunnery, cap, etc.

    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #38 - 2013-05-03 15:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
    The certificate system as it currently stands is nearly worthless. None of your ideas seem worth an hour of development time unless it has some other unexpected benefit. I really appreciate that you are asking!

    Any form of public display is merely a intel tool.

    Third party sites using a limited api is a better option for bragging.

    Evemon's reminder system is the only reason why I claim them. Evemon is better for skill planning. In general I think you should leave skill planning to the players and third parties.

    What type of skill planning support might you give that would be useful? A corporate skill plan that you and the directors can compare your skills to. This would help a corporation answer the question: does this person meet our minimum standards? You could also have CCP prepared plans within the NPC corps. I still don't think this idea is worth any development time, but at least there would be some use and it would incorporate the players into planning the actual "certificates."
    C DeLeon
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #39 - 2013-05-03 15:27:28 UTC
    Stop saying certificates are useless!

    I'm still using it to follow my skill progression on my alts and it helps in the process of long-term skillqueue planning. It's not useless it's just outdated a little bit.
    Theia Matova
    Dominance Theory
    #40 - 2013-05-03 15:42:44 UTC
    Certificates provide many functions:
    - As new player they may give you either right or wrong direction where to go
    - They can be used for checking skill levels of player
    - For me personally they also work as "achievements", I just want that higher level core competency! gaagh!

    I know that public certificates are rarely used but is there real reason to take them away? Many people joke with them. Pirates also use them for misleading info and so on.

    When you would implement easy certificate comparison then make us also feature that where one can set filter for minimum required skills and compare this certificate profile to the filter.

    Definitely don't take certificates away like many seem to say. Even reconsider if public certificates have purpose in EVE they might even have.. What comes to such comparison I perhaps would prefer pure comparison of skill rather than certificates. Since comparison between certificates can leave holes.

    so hmm in summary
    * don't take public certificates away
    * don't make comparison for certificates
    * make comparison to skills since thats what really matters?

    Certificates have purpose it does not need changing?