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Asking for feedback on Certificate visibility

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-05-03 10:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hello folks,

We have long term plans to improve Certificates as a whole and we would appreciate your input regarding their public visibility. At the moment it is possible to set individual certificates as public by going into your character sheet, under the Certificates > Permissions Tab.


Initial research has shown a low usage of characters set Certificates as public, we thus are considering the following options:


  • Remove the ability to set Certificates as public

  • Offer the ability to drag and drop individual Certificates, or a whole Certificate profile from a character into any kind of text input field (conversation channels or EVE mails for instance – this already is possible for individual Certificates from the planner)

  • Offer means to compare Certificates with a particular individual that give you permission with your own

  • For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but don’t mention to which fields they apply – for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.


Would you feel comfortable with any of these options? Which ones do you like? Options outside that list may be considered as well, if expressed in a constructive manner.


As another topic for you guys to voice your feedback to, what information would you feel worried about if it was displayed as public by default and why?


In all cases, please note all of this remains high-level conceptual work that is in no way set in stone or even planned for the immediate future, which is why we are asking for your input in the first place.

Many thanks for your time.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-05-03 11:10:01 UTC
Not sure if anything on that list Would make them more used by anyone.

The main problem with certificates is that level of representesion of skills. Its low compared to what people (for example - recruiters) want to know about candidates.

They are also weak in terms of goal for skilling. No one is telling You "go skill for core defense elite" - thy tell You to train shield / armor skills.

If at any point in time there was MAJOR revision of certificate structure then yes, proposed changes (especially drag&drop of certificates) would be used to:

- verify if character have required level of skills
- bragging rights
- set skill plans based on certificates instead of separate skills

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-03 11:13:08 UTC
I think the bigger problem is finding a place for certificates where they have some relevance to both the player that is awarded them and a reason for someone else to want to see them.

I cannot think of a time where i have seen (or even heard) where one player has asked "do you have certificate xxx? you cannot fly in ship / fleet / corp without it" there is either a situation where you are asked can you fly ship type x and there is a level of trust you know how to fit the ship effectivly, or especially with the rise of specific doctrines and being able to link fits and immediately see if you are able to fit all of the modules etc. it is usually far quicker just to link and fit and say "can you fly this?".
Adding to this, there are some certificates that are so broad in the skills the require that they do not necessarily accurately represent your ability to fulfill the role it is for dependent on the current ship doctrine meta.

I guess i understand the reasoning behind them being in game, and I see how they can be a useful guideline to new players, but i just thin generally there is simpler or more commonly used methods to ask the same questions the certs answer.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#4 - 2013-05-03 11:16:53 UTC
I think the first hurdle for certificates is that very few people understand what they are for.

- Hints about what you should train?
- Easy way for experienced players to tell younger players what they should train?
- Bragging (and handing free intel)?

It appears that there was some ideas behind them, but this idea wasn't very well communicated when they showed up and it's not very well communicated new players.

Made worse by the fact that many of them contain stuff that it's not very clear why the player should spend time training a certain skill which doesn't appear to have any use at all, except for getting a certificate.

I had a wise CEO back in the days that managed to use several of the core ones to teach us n00bs about what we should train, but it very much appear to be limited to wise CEOs dealing with n00bs ;)

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#5 - 2013-05-03 11:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: MuraSaki Siki
1. I agree the removal of the publicity of Certificates.
2. And I dun think showing the number of the Certificates you've get is a good idea


hide the information of the character is a way to confuse the enemy, or at least dun let him know my ability.
As you know more, you will be better chance to win. The skills info of character should not be public

Also, fixing the certificates content is much more important. Tag some useful certificates to fly the ship well.
or simply, just remove it.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#6 - 2013-05-03 11:26:14 UTC
The problem with certificates is, that it's far too easy and common to bully people into disclosing their full API.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7 - 2013-05-03 11:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Don't see any good coming out of public certificates, as they won't be looked up unless for intel in pvp.

Inaccurate information about certificates also doesn't seem to be of much use afterall, the current option to display certificates at least allows for a brief skillcheck, but even that is more handled by eveboard (for recruiting purposes) or evemon (regarding setting up plans)

edit: mee mightey mockupskills made it look like a bloody regular mmo skilltree. Think that would be way clearer than the current version. http://i.imgur.com/6kVSq3i.png
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-05-03 11:35:22 UTC
Certificates up to today Only made damage to the game. I see lots of new players focused in the certificates instead of skilling to fly ships for specific roles and they get misleaded!

Today there is a LOT more peopel that think they do not have enough skilsl to PVP because they do not have elite on the role they Think the certificates describe. I have 100 MILLION sp and i have only a very few elite certificates and MOST are on basics. That is completely misleading and is making HUGE damage to new players experience. I had several friedns thatI introduced to the game complain that they were unable to do this or that because the certificates said they were weak on that.


Not to forget hat most new players think certificates are somethign you go adquire somewhere and keep asking how do I buy a certificate for X or Y so I can fly that ship...



It was a HORRIBLe idea and need to be totally reworked.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
0wl
Hailbird
#9 - 2013-05-03 11:46:30 UTC
- Remove Them.
- Let's be honest after a while into the game, who really cares? I have an '05 Character and I've never claimed any of them. Seams like a waste of time and resources to me.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-03 11:58:43 UTC
well i have been in corps were the noobs ask for help with skillplans etc.
so certificates were of some use in guiding them we would often say core competency was an important set of skills to train as a solid base to move into better ships etc.

Main point for me though is they need some work to clarify what the certificates are and why they are useful... they are a bit unclear and not the easiest to find and interact with. and since its mainly new players to the game these are actually useful as when you have played the game for a while you know what skills you need for what ship...
Its more of a information tool for noobs and anything to improve new player experience is worth doing is it not?

Also on public thing yes as an intel tool the certificates would be useful to see what character can fly what so i would suggest it needs to be more of a corp view so its easy to help new guys to prioritize and understand things.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

To mare
Advanced Technology
#11 - 2013-05-03 12:01:10 UTC
just remove them, they are one of the most useless things in the game and like someone already said they are misleading.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#12 - 2013-05-03 12:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sexy Cakes
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Initial research has shown a low usage of characters set Certificates as public


Why should this drive a change?

The reason no one uses them is it gives out free info as to what your character has trained to anyone who wants to know.

As paranoid as this game requires you to be why would anyone set them as public?

Leave them as is, their good for people who need to know what skill sets are recommended to fly new ships. Just because certificates have a low percentage of people setting them as public doesn't mean they need changing.

As a side note when I claim a certificate I would love to be able to double click it in the window that pops up just after you claim a new certificate and it take me to that certificate in the certification planner. As it is now its like 'Hey heres a new cert but go dig through the interface to see what all is in it'

Not today spaghetti.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-05-03 12:15:02 UTC
Put a disclaimer on the cert planner that says "Warning, this planner does not help you plan your skill progression in any way shape or form"

TBH i think you need to totally overhaul the cert thing or just scrap it. Its not something that will become useful with some minor tweaks

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-05-03 12:15:49 UTC
Weren't certificates initially implemented so people would better know what to train for?

I've never made any of my certificates public, earlier because I used to be very specialized and I didn't want anyone to know just what to use to counter me before the fight even started and later because I never saw any reason to do so, as a certificate does not require any kind of special commitment to gain, just time.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-05-03 12:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus II
The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank.

I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful.

I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates.

This also opens up other interesting things, such as personal skill planning (like a built in EveMon). Also new types of services where you for example could sell fully fitted ships + certificate to fly them properly.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-05-03 12:28:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but don’t mention to which fields they apply – for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.
    • Sounds like an intel tool to me. This would give an indication if that guy in local is a cyno/scout alt or someone's main - depending on if they actually claim their certificates.


    I like certificates! I used the certificate tool a lot when starting out. I liked being able to click on a cert and seeing all the skills that could effect a certain aspect of flying ships. I found the certificate tree a lot less daunting to look at and comprehend than either the skill queue or the skills in market - there's so many it felt difficult to choose between them. The certificate tree, however, showed me the skills I could train for capacitor or the skills that I could train for lasers.

    I didn't care too much about actually finishing the skills for a level of a certificate, but I did use the tool to decide what to train next for what I wanted to do in space.

    I'd never make certs public, though. There's no real use for me.
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #17 - 2013-05-03 12:28:20 UTC
    Daedalus II wrote:
    The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank.

    I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful.

    I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates.

    This also opens up other interesting things, such as personal skill planning (like a built in EveMon). Also new types of services where you for example could sell fully fitted ships + certificate to fly them properly.



    mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Dato Koppla
    Balls Deep Inc.
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #18 - 2013-05-03 12:30:06 UTC
    When I was a young player with no idea of whats going on, I used to choose the certificates as goals that were recommended for ships, it wasn't a very good or orderly progression, but most of the skills ended up being relevant and useful.

    I think with some proper direction and focus the certificates can be useful.
    ExAstra
    Echoes of Silence
    #19 - 2013-05-03 12:39:27 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    • For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but don’t mention to which fields they apply – for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.


    Would you feel comfortable with any of these options? Which ones do you like? Options outside that list may be considered as well, if expressed in a constructive manner.

    This gets my full support. It'd be nice to be able to "show" people the certificates you have without broadcasting: "Oh, he has maxed all of his shield, tank, fitting, and laser skills".

    Etc..

    Save the drones!
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #20 - 2013-05-03 12:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
    Lots already said here.

    1) Public certiicates only give pvp-ers informations you don't want them to have.

    2) I like the idea of certiicates, but they don't realy do anything. why claim them? it's not I get coolios from anyone for claiming them.

    3) they're out dated, skills changed, new skills have be incerted. Missile Precision might be one of the single most importand missiles support skill and it's in non of the missile certiicates (Neither was Guided missile precision)

    4) You could use them as prequisits for ships, though that would throw away the whole new setup. It might be a tool to be used for certain mission agents, in stead of standing, some mission agents would be more intrested in skill than how well they know their company. Some agents might think better of them not knowing their corp.

    but as they are now.

    the only time people speak about them is when advicing a new player and only

    - Core certificates
    - Defence certiicates
    - Gunnery/Missile certificates

    Navigation consists of so few skills people usualy tell you wich skills to learn. and all others are never mentioned in my part of New Eden.
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