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Signature strength
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darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-05-02 18:32:42 UTC
Hello there

I have a small question regarding the signature strength of wormholes. According to the wormhole signature strength list different types of wormholes have a different signature strength, i.e. I should be able to tell which signatures are candidates for which kind of wormhole. According to the same list a K162 wormhole (exit) always has a strength of 10%, regardless of the type of wormhole that it belongs to.

Now let's assume that I'm probing down an N432 wormhole with a signature strength of 2.5% on the low-sec side while someone else probes down the same wormhole from within the c5. Since I'm a noob prober he's going to beat me to it, warp to the wormhole and jump through. From what I understand that's going to turn the N432 into a K162 on my side. Does this mean that the wormhole's signature strength is going to change while I'm probing it?

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-05-02 18:49:40 UTC
No, theres no N432 in C5. So if you two are probing the same connection, its weak N432 on your side and strong K162 on his side. Signatures dont change by jumping trough. Once something spawns, it remains the same until it despawns altogether.

SSC Brokering Service
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#3 - 2013-05-02 18:56:27 UTC
darmwand wrote:
From what I understand that's going to turn the N432 into a K162 on my side.

Where did you get this understanding? That's not the case at all. It will always be an N432 on your side and it will always be a K162 on his side.
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#4 - 2013-05-02 19:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
Forget sig size and strengths a moment, The way i look at it is like this:

K162 = Always an Incoming wormhole
N432 and any other type = Outgoing wormhole

Using your example, the K162 side of the wormhole will only spawn, once the N432 side has been scanned down and warped to by someone. Not sure if you knew that, so thought i would mention it.

On the low sec side, N432 will stay at sig size 2.5, always.
On the w-space side, K162 will stay at sig size 10, always.

Same applies to all wormholes, they never change wormhole identity, or sig size.

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-02 19:40:20 UTC
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. I was somehow under the impression that both sides of the wormhole were always there and the question of whether I see a K162 or the actual name of the wormhole depended on which side it was first accessed from. Seems I learnt something new, thank you all!

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-05-02 23:08:32 UTC
You will probably get some people (still) arguing to the contrary, but most people accept that the K162 at the other end of a wormhole only spawns when someone initiates a warp to the wormhole. You may have people ‘quoting’ work that proves this and others work that disproves it. IMHO it is best to keep away from those arguments and simply work with what seems to be happening.

A wormhole of a given type (e.g. N432 or K162) always has the same size as viewed by your scan-probes. That signature size does not change as the wormhole progresses through its natural (or unnatural) life cycle … even though the wormhole onscreen graphic does change. A different scanner (skills and equipment) may see the wormhole as a different size to what you see, and you may see it as being a different size if you change equipment or your skills progress.

In general terms K162s are large and the other wormhole types vary with the dangerousness of where they lead … non-K162 wormholes to hisec are large, non-K162 wormholes to C6s are small, with the others ranged in between. Just how ‘large’ they appear to your probes will depend on the probes you’re using, your skills, and your other equipment.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-05-03 01:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Substantia Nigra wrote:
...

In general terms K162s are large and the other wormhole types vary with the dangerousness of where they lead … non-K162 wormholes to hisec are large, non-K162 wormholes to C6s are small, with the others ranged in between. Just how ‘large’ they appear to your probes will depend on the probes you’re using, your skills, and your other equipment.

Good overall, but misses a few interesting points relating to the scan strength of outbounds, which can trip you up if you venture deeper into Anoikis.

As a general rule:

  • Strong signatures (10 band, 6.67 band) that are outbounds are going to connect systems of the same or very similar classes (C1/C2/HS->C1/C2/HS, C3/C4/LS->C3/C4/LS, C5/C6/NS->C5/C6/NS groupings).
  • Medium-weak signatures (5 band, 4 band) are going to connect systems whose classes are modestly separated (C1/C2 -> LS, C2->C3/C4, C3->HS/C1/C2, C4->C1/C2, C5->LS/C4, C6->C3/C4/LS, HS->LS/C3, LS->NS/C1/C2/HS, NS->LS/C3 groupings)
  • Weak signatures (2.5band, 2.2band/1.25band) are going to connect systems whose classes are quite separated (C1/C2/C3->NS/C5/C6, C4->C5/C6, C5/C6->C1/C2/HS, HS->NS/C5/C6, NS->HS/C1/C2 groupings)

You will notice upon careful reading that C5->C3 (M267) wormholes are not listed alongside C5->LS (C140) or C5->C4 (E175) signatures above. This is because they are the only exception I could find to the above rule, having a signal strength that places them into the 2.2/1.25 band despite connecting systems of fairly similar class.

This differs from the rule quoted when you scan from the inside of high class systems (as in, where the 'sense' of which wormholes are strong and which are weak signals reverses from what a HS scanner may be used to).
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#8 - 2013-05-03 02:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
...

In general terms K162s are large and the other wormhole types vary with the dangerousness of where they lead … non-K162 wormholes to hisec are large, non-K162 wormholes to C6s are small, with the others ranged in between. Just how ‘large’ they appear to your probes will depend on the probes you’re using, your skills, and your other equipment.

Good overall, but misses a few interesting points relating to the scan strength of outbounds, which can trip you up if you venture deeper into Anoikis.

As a general rule:

  • Strong signatures (10 band, 6.67 band) that are outbounds are going to connect systems of the same or very similar classes (C1/C2/HS->C1/C2/HS, C3/C4/LS->C3/C4/LS, C5/C6/NS->C5/C6/NS groupings).
  • Medium-weak signatures (5 band, 4 band) are going to connect systems whose classes are modestly separated (C1/C2 -> LS, C2->C3/C4, C3->HS/C1/C2, C4->C1/C2, C5->LS/C4, C6->C3/C4/LS, HS->LS/C3, LS->NS/C1/C2/HS, NS->LS/C3 groupings)
  • Weak signatures (2.5band, 2.2band/1.25band) are going to connect systems whose classes are quite separated (C1/C2/C3->NS/C5/C6, C4->C5/C6, C5/C6->C1/C2/HS, HS->NS/C5/C6, NS->HS/C1/C2 groupings)

You will notice upon careful reading that C5->C3 (M267) wormholes are not listed alongside C5->LS (C140) or C5->C4 (E175) signatures above. This is because they are the only exception I could find to the above rule, having a signal strength that places them into the 2.2/1.25 band despite connecting systems of fairly similar class.

This differs from the rule quoted when you scan from the inside of high class systems (as in, where the 'sense' of which wormholes are strong and which are weak signals reverses from what a HS scanner may be used to).


As said there are a few variations to this rule, but Tarunik Raqalth'Qui is correct. Its a pattern you will notice if you scan a lot, you may even start to learn off by heart what sig size will lead to what type of wormhole/s across all K/W Space Smile

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga