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I'm sorry CCP, that we the pilots, are stoping EVE from growing

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#81 - 2013-05-02 20:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
John Stuward wrote:


CCP "Seems" happy. Knowing that the world they created has been infested by the worst society has and they can't do anything about it because it's the majority... they act happy.



Right, if we're so terrible, why'd one of the Harpa employees post this?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230698&find=unread

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Logan Nask
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-05-02 20:06:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
You do realize that whenever a story of epic intrigue, betrayal, and general skullduggery impossible to attain in any other game hits the media outlets it is usually followed with a sharp spike in new subscriptions right?

Even players that have no desire to play the bad guy still want to be part of a game where it is possible to do so.



This. Longtime MMO player here. I didn't realize how tired I was with most other MMOs until I saw a news article about that last big battle. It was a topic on a discussion forum I've been on for years.

"Oh yeah EVE," I thought and looked into it more. The 'worst of society' allowed to do want they want sounded appealing even though I don't have much inclination to be that way myself. But playing in an environment that was harsher then most MMOs seemed fresh and as many of said quite unique in the MMO world. That and the fact that it has been steady and growing for ten years.

That was just under three months ago. Ended up about a dozen from that board joined as total newbs and us and a few vets formed a corp. All but one of the intitial group is still playing. At least half the group have at least 2 accounts and a few of us like it so much we have 3 now.

The consensus is most definitely the 'harshness' of the way many EVE players play makes for a way more interesting game. We've blow-up in PVP more then we've killed, ganked, gatecamped and decided to just risk going into a WH even though we're new. Yep, risk and reward. Having a great time.

It's a much harder game then other MMOs I've played. I have to think a whole lot more. Mistakes can hurt big time. It's so refreshing.


I wouldn't be paying 3 subs right now for another 'bleh' everyone just help each MMO. And it's not like I haven't met and played with helpful people. The majority I've met so far outside my corp are pretty great and fun. Even the ones that have blown me up. Some of the most fun interactions I've had so far are with the supposed 'bad' types after they've blown me up.

My most favorite death was when as a newb I ventured into nullsec through a WH and tried some ninja mining.
I managed to keep myself there for a long time until all of sudden 'bam' a fleet of 12 cov-ops from PL jumped on my butt and blew me up. I quite literally jumped out of my seat. They weren't mean or harsh when I talked to them after. We had a good laugh. That sort of thing just never happened in other MMO's I played.


So yeah. I represent people who join and love it because the 'worst of society' are allowed and even encourage by CCP to play.


Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-05-02 20:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Velicitia wrote:
John Stuward wrote:


CCP "Seems" happy. Knowing that the world they created has been infested by the worst society has and they can't do anything about it because it's the majority... they act happy.



Right, if we're so terrible, why'd one of the Harpa employees post this?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230698&find=unread


Its a strange dichotomy (is that even spelled right), but I suppose from an anecdotal perspective I troll people on the forums quite a lot, but I suppose I am nice if you talk to me on voice comms.

The thing is, that these people are horrible when they can get away with it. Since there are social norms and etiquette to be had while dealing with people face to face, people often act nice. Its when they are online and deal with faceless people do they turn internet bullies.

Suffice to say I would wager that there are some people out there who are bullies all the time to random strangers and their loved ones that play EVE. Well statistics shows that 1 out of 100 person are sociopaths so there are plenty in EVE.

I think the key thing is that there are two camps. Those who think its ok to be space jerks and those who think social norms still apply which leads to our current disagreements.

Personally, I half-heartedly accept there are space jerks and do my best to troll or avoid them.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Melissa Turner
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-05-02 20:15:27 UTC
im new and i just love this thread very interesting read. please keep going! dont stop.. dont stop!...

Herbal essence ..TAKE ME AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WTFAMILOOKINGAT
Horizon Research Group
#85 - 2013-05-02 20:17:26 UTC
Quote:
all my time of avoiding piracy and trying to go about things in a peaceful manner goes to show we can be better than what the majority has shown us to be.


What, you think you're better than other Eve players because you're all flowers and peace? Dude, **** You right in the ear.


Seriously, **** you.
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-05-02 20:17:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
What i don't get is why people always harp on "more subs". What will more people do?

Are the ship buidlers running out of people to buy ships? Are buy orders going forever unfilled , are sell orders just sitting and waiting forever in Jita. Are their no kills going on anywhere? No missions or Incursions of Plexes being run?

What, EXACTLY do you think you'll get from more people subscribing to EVE online. And yea, it's a pretty rhetorical question because most sensible people know that you really won't get all the things you think you will if more people sub or more new players stay instead of quit. But I wouldn't mind actually hearing the "reasons".

A game that has survived 10 years, if fairly exclusive and is still slowly growing seems great to me. What problem is so big only 9 million more subscribers can fix it?

It's the common misconception nowadays that everything needs to grow continuously to be even relevant.

The economy needs to grow every year. My personal wealth needs to grow every year. Companies not only need to make a profit, they need to make more profit every year. Or be left behind. Or something.

People are not able to grasp that growth for growth-sake (and more growth next year) is not needed, not even desirable and certainly not sustainable.

EvE trundles along nicely, thank you very much.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-05-02 20:20:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:

I joined EvE to violence other people's boats in an environment, where the punishment for failure constitutes more than a 30 second respawn timer. It delivers.


I wanted to give you a high 5 after reading this, but realized I was jsut slapping my monitor. Damn, EVE is REAL.

\o
Jenn aSide wrote:
Quote:

There is no need for catering to the masses for exponential growth. The masses are fickle and have short attention spans.

For some reason I imgainged you wearing a Togo and standing in the Roman Forum while saying this.

Sounds like my Eternal Priest, years before it was cool and everyone had one as a buff bot alt.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Rual Storge
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-05-02 20:26:04 UTC
I admit i have trolled ccp alot in the past about the core eve gameplay but they have done soo much improvement and im trusted now that more improvement will come so i kinda stop trolling, like you do now, and just sit back and make use of all these changes going on right now to make a serious good second start when it does come to a point when even you will change your opinion and beginning to enjoy the game again.

Im actualy suprised that i could write the above sentence in this current state of unclear condition


lol
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#89 - 2013-05-02 20:29:59 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it.

If he follows your advice, so will he be.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-05-02 20:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Frank Millar wrote:
It's the common misconception nowadays that everything needs to grow continuously to be even relevant.

The economy needs to grow every year. My personal wealth needs to grow every year. Companies not only need to make a profit, they need to make more profit every year. Or be left behind. Or something.

People are not able to grasp that growth for growth-sake (and more growth next year) is not needed, not even desirable and certainly not sustainable.

EvE trundles along nicely, thank you very much.


I don't mean to burst you bubble but CCP is owned by private investment companies who usually at mimimum want their investment portfolio to grow 5-10% a year. (Well to beat inflation you have to make 3-4% growth per year)

You act like the game is owned by the player base, but its not. From a operation perspective, the private investor companies Novator Partners and General Catalyst Partners seem to have a hands off approach to their investment. No outrageous policies or changes have been handed down by the people owning the purse strings for the most part because CCP has been having loads of growth.

That said, if CCP started to have no income gains for a year or two, things might be said to upper management.

Of course growth is why CCP is doing Dust.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#91 - 2013-05-02 20:39:40 UTC
John Stuward wrote:
It's not easy to pull in new pilots when they are being preyed upon by people who want an easy target


Sigh... Show us on the doll where the mean pirates touched you.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-05-02 20:42:13 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I don't mean to burst you bubble but CCP is owned by private investment companies who usually at mimimum want their investment portfolio to grow 5-10% a year. (Well to beat inflation you have to make 3-4% growth per year)


No, there are all kinds of companies that are not expected to have any or little growth in profits, which also makes them ideal for withstanding economic downturns, among other reasons they are valued. So your pulled from ass theory and numbers are bullshit.

That said, video games are generally a high-risk/high-return investment, whether as the basis of an entire company or as a branch or product line within one. However, that still doesn't mean that they need to conform to your pulled from ass universal rule for financial returns.

You have absolutely no clue what CCP's investors want and expect from CCP in terms of mixing risk, income, and growth potential, so you should stfu (as usual in your particular case).

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#93 - 2013-05-02 20:44:49 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Frank Millar wrote:
It's the common misconception nowadays that everything needs to grow continuously to be even relevant.

The economy needs to grow every year. My personal wealth needs to grow every year. Companies not only need to make a profit, they need to make more profit every year. Or be left behind. Or something.

People are not able to grasp that growth for growth-sake (and more growth next year) is not needed, not even desirable and certainly not sustainable.

EvE trundles along nicely, thank you very much.


I don't mean to burst you bubble but CCP is owned by private investment companies who usually at mimimum want their investment portfolio to grow 5-10% a year. (Well to beat inflation you have to make 3-4% growth per year)

You act like the game is owned by the player base, but its not. From a operation perspective, the private investor companies Novator Partners and General Catalyst Partners seem to have a hands off approach to their investment. No outrageous policies or changes have been handed down by the people owning the purse strings for the most part because CCP has been having loads of growth.

That said, if CCP started to have no income gains for a year or two, things might be said to upper management.

Of course growth is why CCP is doing Dust.
All true.
Never-the-less, CCP is doing manageable growth, rather than growth-for-growth's-sake. Whether that's intentional or a happy accident, I'll leave to others. Either way, I'm pleased with it.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Pepper Solette
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-05-02 20:46:31 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
John Stuward wrote:
It's not easy to pull in new pilots when they are being preyed upon by people who want an easy target, or the null sec blocks that paint such a negative image of EVE. Most of the things you hear about EVE are about all the terrible things we manage to do to each other while under the flag of Anon.

There are not many who wish to be part of the worst society has to offer.

There are the good, but they are massively over shadowed by the bad.


(This is an Alt, and this isnt how EVE should be... but it's all a matter of opinion, isnt it?)


Eeeeh, yes and no. Mostly no. And the part that is a yes, it so by design.

EVE, by design, discourages "fair" play, in the same way as many/most other MMOs encourage it.

What I mean is, you are far more likely to see a 20v1 fight in EVE than you are in most other MMOs. And this does turn people off. Compared to other MMOs that force a 2v2 or 10v10 or 40v40 and limit things by equipment levels. Some games are DESIGNED to be a fair, balanced test of skill. EVE is designed to let people do what they want, and basic human nature takes over.

So are players to blame? Sure. But if you took any other game's player base and took away the rules preventing them from acting like hairless apes, they'd start behaving in exactly the same way as they do in EVE. And that's why those other games likely have player bases measuring in the millions, while EVE barely clawed its way up to 500k after 10 years, and most of those are probably alt accounts anyway.

Bottom line - to each their own. Some people like to have someone put on stiletto heels and stomp on their nether regions. Just because it's not for you, doesn't mean it's not for them.

Mr Epeen wrote:

And yet they still manage to do it. Building the player base steadily for ten years.

TEN FRIKKIN' YEARS!!!!

How many other games can say that?

Mr Epeen Cool


It's all relative. EVE, right now, has a population that is about 1/20th of what Blizzard has in WoW. To put it into perspective, it is more than likely that if EVE lives for another 10 years, CCP will have made about as much money from EVE as Blizzard made from WoW in 1 year. And WoW is 9 years old. As such, EVE "growing" from 50k to 500k is nice, but hardly something to shout from the rooftops. Especially when you consider how much competition EVE has had (which is to say, none) and how much competition WoW faced in fantasy genre over the years.

I'm not trying to belittle EVE's accomplishments. Far from it. But let's be realistic. CCP says the game has 500k subs? And that means growth? Well, compared to 450k, sure, it's growth. But let me ask you this - what are the odds this 50k difference can simply be attributed to alt accounts? Let me give you a very simple example - do YOU have one account or more? I bet it's more than one. If true, did the number of accounts you currently have increase in the last 2 years? If yes, that's partially the reason for EVE's "growth". And white technically it did grown, this is a very bad kind of growth.

Why is it bad? Simple. In another MMO, where players-to-accounts ratio is 1:1. when a player leaves, for whatever reason (work, family, money problems, illness, death), what happens? The game loses one account. But in EVE, when one player quits, and he's running 10 accounts, the game loses 10 accounts to one person. Makes the population very unstable. Which is what we saw with Incarna. It wasn't a lot of people quitting, it was a few players cancelling all of their accounts.

Bottom line - EVE is a success, but it's all relative. There's a whole lot more MMOs that are more successful than EVE, despite EVE having infinitely more uniqueness and potential to it.




One of the best write-ups i have read in a long time. I agree with you that growth is certainly relative. I myself have 3 accounts, down from 6. I've made my money and i am now downsizing.

Facts are facts, but i still love this game. Expansions, fixes, new bits, piracy, null-seccing, carebears, etc etc etc. There is nothing you can't do in here if you have the tenacity, intelligence and the will to do so.

The best bit or information i can give anyone joining the EvE culture is to read. READY EVERYTHING AT LEAST ONCE. Read your contracts, read about the alliances, wormholes, manufacturing. Learn how to do things in EvE on the internet. Get out and learn this game! Don't expect to come in here and think everything will be handed to you, this is a tough game that rewards intelligence and tenacity. If you can do that, you will go very far in it.

** Miko Sunji:  "There is no better way to find out if you can swim, than swimming for your life."**
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-05-02 20:51:15 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I don't mean to burst you bubble but CCP is owned by private investment companies who usually at mimimum want their investment portfolio to grow 5-10% a year. (Well to beat inflation you have to make 3-4% growth per year)


No, there are all kinds of companies that are not expected to have any or little growth in profits, which also makes them ideal for withstanding economic downturns, among other reasons they are valued. So your pulled from ass theory and numbers are bullshit.

That said, video games are generally a high-risk/high-return investment, whether as the basis of an entire company or as a branch or product line within one. However, that still doesn't mean that they need to conform to your pulled from ass universal rule for financial returns.

You have absolutely no clue what CCP's investors want and expect from CCP in terms of mixing risk, income, and growth potential, so you should stfu (as usual in your particular case).


The numbers were not pulled from my ass...

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/long_term_inflation.asp

Inflation for the past decade is slightly over 3 percent. If you want a return on your investment you need to beat that or you are actually losing money.

I have to go somewhere so I can't find the data on return on investments but usually investors want to beat inflation and have money left over so 5% to 10% is reasonable. 10% is sometimes pushing it, but that is basically the SP500 baring downturns we had recently.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#96 - 2013-05-02 20:57:19 UTC
No other game has subs close to WoW;

Subs 1m and over

Here are the 150k - 1m numbers, which eve falls into:

150-1m

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-05-02 21:00:30 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
If you want a return on your investment you need to beat that or you are actually losing money.

Roll

And if you invest X in EvE currently, with a return of 1.1X, a net increase in subscribers is not necessary for you to get your 10%.

Quite the contrary, a population explosion can deteriorate the quality of the product, increase overhead and require additional investment to maintain. This additional investment may or may not get the same rate of return, especially if the influx is temporary.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-05-02 21:07:50 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
No other game has subs close to WoW;

Subs 1m and over

Here are the 150k - 1m numbers, which eve falls into:

150-1m


Yeah, apparently if you're not the unparalleled best in your industry, then you're a failure.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#99 - 2013-05-02 21:29:47 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
No other game has subs close to WoW;

Subs 1m and over

Here are the 150k - 1m numbers, which eve falls into:

150-1m
And this is relevent... Why?
EVE is EVE. It matters not what others do, or do not, do. Only what EVE does, or does not.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#100 - 2013-05-02 21:40:15 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
No other game has subs close to WoW;

Subs 1m and over

Here are the 150k - 1m numbers, which eve falls into:

150-1m
And this is relevent... Why?
EVE is EVE. It matters not what others do, or do not, do. Only what EVE does, or does not.



Because, in case you have not been following this thread, I have heard a lot of "WAAAAAAAAAAAH EVE IS DYING"

I suspect you are confusing your avatars with their stance on this issue.

The point is....

EVE needs to grow and get extra subs cos other games have millions of subs....was claimed earlier in this thread


Followed by lots of stuff about how CCP are beholden to their investors who will have a shitfit if they do not exponentially grow....

So...the point my very confused friend, is that Eve, by comparison to pretty much every other MMO, is doing fine, and in fact is growing.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!