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Dev Blog: WantToTrade: Tags for Security Status

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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#101 - 2013-05-02 18:52:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."


Look at the character's killboard before accepting them?
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#102 - 2013-05-02 18:56:11 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
"CCP Masterplan" wrote:
There will no longer be a way to have multiple ticks in parallel across different solar systems. The tick will now be an explicit 5-minute interval, starting with the first NPC kill that a character makes. We are also rebalancing the security status gains given by some NPCs as part of this change, so you might notice slightly different gains per tick.


So two questions based on this.

1) Will you be giving us a visual 5-minute timer? Please?
2) Are you rebalancing the gain upward (faster recovery) or downward (slower recovery)? Exact amounts are in development of course but general trend?

1) Unfortunately that is unlikely
2) A small number of NPCs that were giving very high rewards are being lowered. Overall everything else will average about the same if you're sampling across a reasonable number of spawns.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-05-02 19:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
One of the most interesting things about these tags will be the danger presented in transporting them in highsec.

Also, I think that it should cost at minimum 100 million ISK in CONCORD fees to go all the way from -10 to 0. It needs to be more than a slap on the wrist, especially with all those loot piñatas parading about highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-05-02 19:12:41 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
2) A small number of NPCs that were giving very high rewards are being lowered.

Hjoramold. :( :( :(
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#105 - 2013-05-02 19:18:01 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
I am confused.

I have -8.2 standing to the Concord Assembly NPC Faction

I have -0.3 standing to the Concord NPC corporation (which is also my current sec status)


Under the new system, my sec status would be... ???
And what would happen to my -8.2 standing to the Concord Assembly Faction? I got that from my missions for Blood Raiders, so it kind of has some sentimental value.

Your new sec would be -0.3
Your Concord Assembly NPC Faction standing is unrelated, and will not be changed

EDIT TO ADD:
President of Spaceships wrote:
And her CONCORD corp standing will be 0.0 or -0.3?

CONCORD corp standing will be reset to 0.0


I see. Thanks!

I think I got confused when police response was mentioned, because bad faction standing gets some kind of npc policing response.

I kind of like the idea that I shouldn't really try and pass through Yulai. heh Smile

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Solar Rift
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-05-02 19:26:52 UTC
Just a few comments on the situation here:

Before fanfest, a few corp mates of mine and I had been speaking about how criminals lack any real consequence in eve for committing crimes in high sec. While the concept of lower security status is nice, their just isn't enough. We threw around the idea that once you breached a certain level of negative status that even the NPCs of either Concord or the Nation would actually actively pod criminals. Committing a series of crimes and being a known murderer should be neigh impossible to come back from in the eyes of justice.

However, before us is a way to make the a little easier to return to 0 security status. From a role-play perspective this seems backwards to me. Once you become a solid criminal their should be almost no way of coming back without working years and years to repair your reputation. In eve terms, perhaps several months of active work. Now, I accept that some bribery between the pc's and npc's may happen to get the system to think you are "ok" to people again, or great political forces but under the same concept, one would think a player could bribe Concord to do other things as well, like pay them to blow someone up for you. While this role-play aspect doesn't exist in game, it's just a point to look from when considering these tags.

My suggestions on making it harder to return to a neutral status:

* Character with a lower status than -7.0 will be podded in high sec by Concord or appropriate navy forces.

* Once you are at a negative security status you can only gain other negative status from killing npc's (such as negative for blowing up Sancha rats) but not gain any positive status from the actions in the eyes of the Empires and Concord.

* These tags would be the only means to raise status with the empires & concord.

* Increase the number of tags required by 10x while keeping the drop rate the same as intended now so that it takes many months (if not a year) of active work to finally get back to a point where you can re-enter high sec.

All of this is done to dissuade players from becoming criminals unless that is the intended life they want to have in eve. Players who become criminals in High Security space would really start to feel the actions upon them.


Let's not make it easier for griefers to return to high sec. Lets empower the police force so that the concept of High Security really means "high security".

Thanks for listening,

Solar Rift
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#107 - 2013-05-02 19:34:21 UTC
I have several thoughts.

One, this seems like a lot like knitting a sweater with a sledgehammer. Crude and not very productive.

Second, the implementation seems arbitrary and lazy. Another rare drop item. Woo-hoo. Why did noone else think of that?

Sec Status as a basic system needs reworked. It should interact with the faction standings (to expand the sandbox- this is more a good idea then a requirement), reward constructive service, punish filthy criminal acts, and have consequences. Currently, it rewards nothing and has very few consequences, that are too easy to work around. This is only going to add to the problem, by making it even less consequential. Go back to the drawing board, and work on Sec Status as a whole.

Overhaul Dscan!
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#108 - 2013-05-02 19:37:27 UTC
Solar Rift wrote:
Just a few comments on the situation here:

Before fanfest, a few corp mates of mine and I had been speaking about how criminals lack any real consequence in eve for committing crimes in high sec. While the concept of lower security status is nice, their just isn't enough. We threw around the idea that once you breached a certain level of negative status that even the NPCs of either Concord or the Nation would actually actively pod criminals. Committing a series of crimes and being a known murderer should be neigh impossible to come back from in the eyes of justice.

However, before us is a way to make the a little easier to return to 0 security status. From a role-play perspective this seems backwards to me. Once you become a solid criminal their should be almost no way of coming back without working years and years to repair your reputation. In eve terms, perhaps several months of active work. Now, I accept that some bribery between the pc's and npc's may happen to get the system to think you are "ok" to people again, or great political forces but under the same concept, one would think a player could bribe Concord to do other things as well, like pay them to blow someone up for you. While this role-play aspect doesn't exist in game, it's just a point to look from when considering these tags.

My suggestions on making it harder to return to a neutral status:

* Character with a lower status than -7.0 will be podded in high sec by Concord or appropriate navy forces.

* Once you are at a negative security status you can only gain other negative status from killing npc's (such as negative for blowing up Sancha rats) but not gain any positive status from the actions in the eyes of the Empires and Concord.

* These tags would be the only means to raise status with the empires & concord.

* Increase the number of tags required by 10x while keeping the drop rate the same as intended now so that it takes many months (if not a year) of active work to finally get back to a point where you can re-enter high sec.

All of this is done to dissuade players from becoming criminals unless that is the intended life they want to have in eve. Players who become criminals in High Security space would really start to feel the actions upon them.


Let's not make it easier for griefers to return to high sec. Lets empower the police force so that the concept of High Security really means "high security".

Thanks for listening,

Solar Rift


The whole fun engaging play the game part doesn't seem to exist in the world of IRL months to pay off the punishment of playing the game here. Wow. This kinda reminds me of the permanent kicked from empire idea I often see.

Not everyone who lives in low sec and pvps is a griefer. Not everyone who wants an increased sec standing wants it to return to high sec.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Urban Trucker
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-05-02 19:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Urban Trucker
Well you could initiate a "Capture System" in eve.

Guy commits enough criminal acts, the person can be "Captured" and jailed/ejected into lowsec, and the gates lock them out of highsec for a 24 hour period (They can fly around lowsec/nullsec/wh with no issue, but they can't get through the highsec entrance gate.

Heck make a module out of it.

Capture Web, highslot.

Target a POD and capture the pilot. If pilot is captured by the module, Pilots DNA is scanned and sent to Concord. Concord encodes the lowsec/highsec entrance gates with the criminals dna, and locks them out for 24 hours. Once encoded, module vaporizes pilot. Pilot must select a lowsec station (out of a list), to where they will be recloned at. Capture Web can only be activated on individuals crimnally flagged or with -5 or lower sec status. Cannot be used on wartargets.

So yea, the criminals actually get "Kicked out" temporarily. They can use the tags for sec to get their status up. if they don't want to, they can find alternatives to get back into highsec (Lets say by finding a wormhole). Once they are by the regional gates (those that connect highsec to lowsec), their dna is no longer scanned (basically, once they are in highsec, regardless of their sec or even if they are on Concords Crap List, they can still use all other gates as normal, dna locking is only done at all lowsec/highsec transport gates.

The lowsec station these players who get captured can be preset by CCP (lets say 15 different lowsec stations where the captured player can choose to be reborn.

Notes:
1) The captured pod/player cannot jump clone into highsec during the 24 hour isolation.
2) The captured pod/player can't suicide/medical clone themselves back to highsec during the 24 hour isolation.

So this really gives people a bit more of a conflict driver, and kind of gives people who want to be more... Police like, the ability to punish a person who commits criminal acts in highsec, and denote actual repercussions. They can POD the person, or they can capture the POD and essentially kick them out of highsec for a 24 hour period (after the 24 hour (Block) is up, they can come and go as they please, the gates won't stop them).

Now will this stop a determined person or group of people, no. If you wanted to denote a more "realer" punishment, the 24 hours could be expanded depending on the sec status when they were captured. 24 hours +1 hr for every .1 of excess negative sec they have, or possibly give the players the ability to increase the lockout of the person by paying isk (lets say 10 mil per extra hour, 240 mil to lock the pod/person out for 48 hours, 480 mil to lock them out for 72 hours (decent change, and 3 days can mess up some plans, and now created a interesting isk sink).

Dynamic gameplay, the players can now police themselves, enhanced wormhole and exploration, and gave an alternative to PODDING people.

But of course, you have to be able to catch the POD.

Another oddball idea.

I am for sale (Fenrir Freighter Pilot, 1.4 mil skillpoints, cheap)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2982440#post2982440
Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-05-02 20:49:48 UTC
Soon.

Soon I will be back in highsec to kill again.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#111 - 2013-05-02 21:35:13 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

CCP (Masterplan in particular) spent an entire year giving us a knockout system for Crime and Punishment, and yet it goes underutilized because criminals aren't committing frequent enough crime in high sec to begin with. Why? Because we can't operate there! What difference does it make if there's suspect flagging, criminal flagging, etc, if no one who is prone to committing those crimes ventures frequently into highsec space.


Maybe there also needs to be a greater range of 'criminal' activities in highsec.

Criminality in eve is really underdeveloped and could use some work.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#112 - 2013-05-02 21:51:38 UTC
A few thoughts:
- The change to a single global 5 minute sec status interval is fantastic.
- The tags are useless to pirates because we value our -10.
- The tags are going to be primarily farmed by low sec bears in Aridia, Solitude, and Genesis and consumed by Goons and other professional gankers. This change will have relatively little effect on piracy or low sec belts.

My biggest wish is that the number of PVP kills in a system in the last 24 hours should determine how likely these rats are to spawn in any particular low sec system. This would mean that Amamake, OMS, Houla, Auga, Kourmonen, Tama, and other PVP hubs would become more busy at the expense of the bear low sec. IMO, any PVP boosts to those areas requires far more thinking than tags.

One more thing: "You can't kill me - I'm the pirate!" ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#113 - 2013-05-02 21:52:13 UTC
I understand that it's nice that losec gets some love, but why should it be easier to get sec back? Did i miss the whining threadnought of all the hiseccers not wanting to rat after burn jita?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#114 - 2013-05-02 21:57:38 UTC
Actually, one more semi serious thing. At one of the low sec panels you mentioned you'd like to see the old system of gradiated sec status vs system security go away in favor of a single -5.0 check. That is, currently you need a -4.5 to get into a 0.5 space and a -2.5 to get into a 1.0 space, and instead this should be a -5.0 sec status check. I didn't see that in the dev blog. Are we still doing that?

I think it's a fantastic move, but it's definitely going to mean that the tags for raising your sec status from -5.5 to -4.5 are the only ones that are really used. Still, sandboxes and markets right? :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-05-02 22:29:34 UTC
Must say I don’t really like this. Feels like the introduction of a lazy mechanic for the substitute of something that could have been genuinely interesting and involved actual player v player mechanics.

Killing low security players could have modified sec status in proportion to their loss or there was a thread a while back “what happens in low sec stays in low sec” thes would have been much more interesting mechanics.

Don’t think NPC drops will bring players to low sec or certainly not in a manner that promotes PVP.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#116 - 2013-05-02 22:31:40 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:

CONCORD standing (like any other standing) has always ranged from -10 to +10. The reason that very few people have it above +5 is because NPCs have a 'max sec status bonus' attribute that is the maximum standing value that they can raise up to. There are no rats any more that have this value above +5, hence there is no way via ratting to get above this value. This won't change in the new system - the rats will still have this limit at which they stop giving sec-status increases.

(Back in the first days of EVE, there used to be other ways to raise CONCORD standing above this level, but those are no longer possible. Hence there are still a few very old characters out there that have such high CONCORD standings - there is no way to achieve it any more, and if they lose it, they'll not be able to get it back)

So, no troll, no typo, definitely for reals. Maybe we'll use this extra headroom one day for something interesting...



So will doing Incursions for Concord increase both our Concord Corp status & our security status then? How bout making the Revenant MOM kill now greater then a +5 value so us incursion runners can start using cloning facilities at Concord stations? We are already earning Concord lp, hell I have at times had over 5 million Concord LP how come with any other NPC corp I'd have close to +10 but with Concord I got only +5Question
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
violator2k5
Crescent Nova
#117 - 2013-05-02 22:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: violator2k5
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Now to see the spawn rate. I'm quite hopeful about it. I do hope the tags to get closer to zero are fairly common


fairly common yes, cheap no.

if people want to buy their sec status back then they need to pay the price. true pirates couldn't care less about their sec status, where as hi-sec ganker's can use this to their advantage. popping nice ships to drop stuffs leaves a few pod's here n there, some might get tired of not shooting stuffs then pop them pods too and then be like "oh this idiot got afk ganked with a full crystal set in...... lolz" then runs off to the nearest low sec station to get sec status back

Quote:
for example CONCORD agents would read/write your security status when you run missions for them. Committing a crime that lowers your security status could then cut off access to certain agents, or even certain areas of space


concord missions coming back?
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-05-02 22:59:46 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Vladimir Tinakin wrote:
mkint wrote:
Farewell to consequences in EVE. :(

At the very least, some of this should be in highsec or something so it's not just a casual stroll in the park. This won't attract players to lowsec on it's own. At least putting the agents in highsec would mean that criminals would have to fly in front of a lot of players' guns before they can "push button receive sec." As it's designed, it's way too easy and low risk.



Two consequences: 1) ISK cost for the tags (likely not too cheap) and the ISK "handling fee" at the concord station itself. So Cost per Gank has to be taken into consideration if you want to do the easy ISK route.

2) These new rats are lowsec belt only. Meaning you have to be in very obvious places in a PVP freefire zone to try and farm these guys, who are probably going to be infrequent at best. Its an Actual Risk, not something I'd expect a mission runner to understand.

Or: The consequence is I open my RL wallet, purchase a PLEX, sell in game for ISK and use the ISK to buy tags and pay CONCORD. In other words an individual can circumvent in game consequences via out of game wealth.


Took me 4 days to fix me sec from -7 to be able to get in highsec again, if you think sec penalties are a consequence you're having a laugh. Also I would consider having to drop RL money into a game a consequence....

This is a great change for EVE - a player with RL money can already sell character buy new character as several reformed pirates I know have done. PLEX can always buy you anything you want if you use a bit of lateral thinking thats never going to change and is healthy increasing plex supply and reducing price helping players who pay in ISK rather than cash.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
T RAYRAY
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2013-05-03 00:15:47 UTC
someone explain why more pilots in wh and null don't trust themselves enough to turn the safety off?

i'm going to quote myself from the original safety-switch dev blog just cause I'm that badazz:


T RAYRAY wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk

^this

the other work to simplify aggro mechanics and flagging were a huge step to making your mouse finger all the safety you need.
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#120 - 2013-05-03 00:20:18 UTC
So it's a buff to suicide ganking?

It effectively removes the only issue with ganking (a loss of sec status) and replaces it with an isk cost to buy it back up again.

Terrible idea, really.