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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2013-05-02 17:35:10 UTC
Since you still didn't bother to read the whole thread Mr Anitmater Gallete player let me spell is out for you.

Small

Small Focused Beam Laser I
10 km range
4 km falloff
7.22 activation GJ
4.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
0.1 rad/sec tracking

150mm Railgun I
12 km range
6 km falloff
2.34 activation GJ
4.25 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.0735 rad/sec tracking

Medium

Heavy Beam I
20 km range
8 falloff
21.67 activation GJ
6.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
0.033 rad/sec tracking

250mm Railgun I
24 km range
12 falloff
7.0 activation GJ
6.375 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.02415 rad/sec tracking

Large

Mega Beam Laser I
40 km range
16 falloff
65 activation GJ
9.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
0.0153125 rad/sec tracking

425mm Railgun I
48 km range
24 km falloff
21 GJ activation GJ
9.56 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.01010625 rad/sec tracking


Tachyon Beam Laser I
44 km range
20 km falloff
95 activation GJ
12.5 rate of fire
4.5 damage modifier
0.01392 rad/sec tracking


I'm sorry .. where in the list is the Tachyon Medium and small weapons? Oh I know ... THEY DON'T EXIST ... Which means the balance point for 425mm Rails is MEGABEAMS. The Tachyon Beam laser is a unique weapon and should be balance separately.

Stop trying to be Bouh 2.0
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#582 - 2013-05-02 17:35:48 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

They are about par, regardless of whatever numbers you can fabricate.


made my day Big smile

mathematics is on my side. over and out.


I said fabricate. That means you made them up.

Effective turret numbers, and lowslots, don't lie.

Neither does the outpouring of support for the new Hyperion compared to the old one, that floods your entire thread.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#583 - 2013-05-02 17:37:34 UTC
Regolis wrote:
The Tachyon Beam laser is a unique weapon and should be balance separately.


then give gallente a unique weapon with separately balance and 18% more dps Lol
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#584 - 2013-05-02 17:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Regolis wrote:
The Tachyon Beam laser is a unique weapon and should be balance separately.


then give gallente a unique weapon with separately balance and 18% more dps Lol


Sure, as long as it has 300% more cap than anything else in your arsenal. Try it, see how much fun it really is.

[Edit: Furthermore, the entire game is full of weapons that are "unique", as it was put.

Gatling Pulse is one such of these, the theme does not continue into higher ship sizes.

Want one of those too?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#585 - 2013-05-02 17:39:29 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Regolis wrote:
The Tachyon Beam laser is a unique weapon and should be balance separately.


then give gallente a unique weapon with separately balance and 18% more dps Lol


Take it to the Gallente whine thread then ... it doesn't belong here. This is for balancing lasers not the railguns.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#586 - 2013-05-02 17:48:11 UTC
It's also interesting to see that when ever I mention the balance on medium and small weapons none of these Gallente players want to talk about it.
Because it's so obviously broken and to their advantage they have nothing to say.

Tell Mr Antimater Gallente player .. How come my MEDIUM guns, which are basically identical to yours, cost 3x the cap of your medium weapons?

Explain to me how I'm going to use these weapons on the new ships that have 0 cap use bonuses but identical capacitors to the rest of the races?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#587 - 2013-05-02 18:13:35 UTC
Regolis wrote:
It's also interesting to see that when ever I mention the balance on medium and small weapons none of these Gallente players want to talk about it.
Because it's so obviously broken and to their advantage they have nothing to say.

Tell Mr Antimater Gallente player .. How come my MEDIUM guns, which are basically identical to yours, cost 3x the cap of your medium weapons?

Explain to me how I'm going to use these weapons on the new ships that have 0 cap use bonuses but identical capacitors to the rest of the races?




The main focus is... PVP shoudl usually not take that long that you get zeroed of cap. And PVE is no measurement to balance (at least not in the same order as to protude into PVP effects).

Some ammar ships might end up with capacitor issues, but that is not fully generalized rule. Pulses can be used fairly easily on medium scale PVP without much of a cap problem.

I for once will just use a cap injector in my apoc .. because I already had to use it anyway!!!! So not so much changed for that ship PVP wise.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#588 - 2013-05-02 18:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Regolis wrote:
It's also interesting to see that when ever I mention the balance on medium and small weapons none of these Gallente players want to talk about it.
Because it's so obviously broken and to their advantage they have nothing to say.

Tell Mr Antimater Gallente player .. How come my MEDIUM guns, which are basically identical to yours, cost 3x the cap of your medium weapons?

Explain to me how I'm going to use these weapons on the new ships that have 0 cap use bonuses but identical capacitors to the rest of the races?




The main focus is... PVP shoudl usually not take that long that you get zeroed of cap. And PVE is no measurement to balance (at least not in the same order as to protude into PVP effects).

Some ammar ships might end up with capacitor issues, but that is not fully generalized rule. Pulses can be used fairly easily on medium scale PVP without much of a cap problem.

I for once will just use a cap injector in my apoc .. because I already had to use it anyway!!!! So not so much changed for that ship PVP wise.


Ok, so what's wrong about giving Amarr the ability to actually have better cap? Will it somehow unbalance pvp?

Pretty sure it won't. So if the main focus is pvp, as you mentioned, then what's the harm of giving them better cap? Or less than a 5 slot tax for cap and fitting?

[Edit: This is a lot of what people here are trying to say. Why is giving Amarr players a better quality of life with their cap and fittings such a freaking problem?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2013-05-02 18:28:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Regolis wrote:
It's also interesting to see that when ever I mention the balance on medium and small weapons none of these Gallente players want to talk about it.
Because it's so obviously broken and to their advantage they have nothing to say.

Tell Mr Antimater Gallente player .. How come my MEDIUM guns, which are basically identical to yours, cost 3x the cap of your medium weapons?

Explain to me how I'm going to use these weapons on the new ships that have 0 cap use bonuses but identical capacitors to the rest of the races?




The main focus is... PVP shoudl usually not take that long that you get zeroed of cap. And PVE is no measurement to balance (at least not in the same order as to protude into PVP effects).

Some ammar ships might end up with capacitor issues, but that is not fully generalized rule. Pulses can be used fairly easily on medium scale PVP without much of a cap problem.

I for once will just use a cap injector in my apoc .. because I already had to use it anyway!!!! So not so much changed for that ship PVP wise.


Ok, so what's wrong about giving Amarr the ability to actually have better cap? Will it somehow unbalance pvp?

Pretty sure it won't. So if the main focus is pvp, as you mentioned, then what's the harm of giving them better cap? Or less than a 5 slot tax for cap and fitting?

[Edit: This is a lot of what people here are trying to say. Why is giving Amarr players a better quality of life with their cap and fittings such a freaking problem?

He is just a winmatar fanboy, he is against anything which could threaten winmatar no1 position in pvp.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#590 - 2013-05-02 18:30:54 UTC
Mega beams are broken i admit. the cost to much energy. they should cost more then hybrids because of ammo advantage, but not 4 times more. i thin 3 times or 2 times more would be enough.

btw here some facts.


fittings with 2 damage mods and T2 weapons with T1 ammo to show you the difference.

using Odyssey EFT files !

Multi L and 2x Tech 2 Heat Sinks vs Antimatter L and 2x Tech 2 Field Stabs. so same conditions.


Hyperion 529 dps
Megathron 582 dps
Kronos 588 dps



Abaddon 669 dps
Nightmare 669 dps
Paladin 669 dps

and i admit, the abaddon is still very hard to fit, but its possible to reach this dps with enough tank for ratting in 0.0 space.

i can show you my odyssey abaddon eft fitting if you dont believe me.

after odyssey, the Paladin will do insane dps with taychion beams without problems

Kronos dont stand a chance with rails

today the nightmare allready shows what the paladin will able to do after odyssey.

the apoc will win too vs the rokh in dps.

the hyperion is not longer the best gallente T1 turret ship, its the megathron after odyssey, so we should compare the abaddon with the megathron in future.

i can give you a cap stable fitting for each of those ships for ratting in 0.0 space with far more dps then gallente rail boats. thats not hard for me. and i guess even ccp knows that. thats the reason why ccp dont listen about your wishes.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#591 - 2013-05-02 18:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Mega beams are broken i admit. the cost to much energy. they should cost more then hybrids because of ammo advantage, but not 4 times more. i thin 3 times or 2 times more would be enough.

btw here some facts.


fittings with 2 damage mods and T2 weapons with T1 ammo to show you the difference.

using Odyssey EFT files !

Multi L and 2x Tech 2 Heat Sinks vs Antimatter L and 2x Tech 2 Field Stabs. so same conditions.


Hyperion 529 dps
Megathron 582 dps
Kronos 588 dps



Abaddon 669 dps
Nightmare 669 dps
Paladin 669 dps

and i admit, the abaddon is still very hard to fit, but its possible to reach this dps with enough tank for ratting in 0.0 space.

i can show you my odyssey abaddon eft fitting if you dont believe me.

after odyssey, the Paladin will do insane dps with taychion beams without problems

Kronos dont stand a chance with rails

today the nightmare allready shows what the paladin will able to do after odyssey.

the apoc will win too vs the rokh in dps.

the hyperion is not longer the best gallente T1 turret ship, its the megathron after odyssey, so we should compare the abaddon with the megathron in future.

i can give you a cap stable fitting for each of those ships for ratting in 0.0 space with far more dps then gallente rail boats. thats not hard for me. and i guess even ccp knows that. thats the reason why ccp dont listen about your wishes.


Before I start up with this, let's have their gun types, their optimals and falloffs, and their total cap life listed for each one. EHP would also be helpful.

Let's not just look at their dps in a vacuum.

Also, you are completely correct, the Megathron is the appropriate comparison for the Abaddon. Both of them have the same amount of effective turrets, and, iirc, lowslots.

So we can do that if you like instead. But!

We have to post all the facts. Not just dps numbers. So what will it be?

(as an aside, the apoc might win in pure damage projection against the Rohk, but the Rohk will have about 50k more ehp. The apoc can barely fit it's own guns, let alone a proper tank. )

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#592 - 2013-05-02 18:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
well that what you asking for is much work and despide on what you want to do with the fitting.

need a drone npc 00 ratting fitting ? need an sansha 00 ratting fitting ? need an level 4 mission fitting ? need an small scale pvp fitting ? need an large fleet pvp fitting ?

i just speak for ratting in 0.0.

all the guys with Nightmares just laughting at my Kronos and make much bigger income then me because Tachyons are supreme in this situation.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#593 - 2013-05-02 18:56:31 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
well that what you asking for is much work and despide on what you want to do with the fitting.

need a drone npc 00 ratting fitting ? need an sansha 00 ratting fitting ? need an level 4 mission fitting ? need an small scale pvp fitting ? need an large fleet pvp fitting ?

i just speak for ratting in 0.0.

all the guys with Nightmares just laughting at my Kronos and make much bigger income then me because Tachyons are supreme in this situation.


Not true. really. A Nightmare is pretty much the only situation in which Tachyons really work, and that is just because it only has to use 4 guns. Also, it's only good at killing Sansha rats, because lasers are a tickle against almost any other kind. Maybe you can get away with Serpentis. Maybe.

Pirate ships, Battleships in particular, are an entirely different case, and ought not be brought up in the same discussion as T1 battleships.

And yes, I am asking for someone else to do the legwork. Unfortunately, I am at work, so I don't have EFT.

But really, the difference isn't that much if you take everything into account. Sure, maybe the Abaddon does more dps (still debatable given a variety of factors), but the Hyperion will have 20km or more range, and fights in falloff much less often. This will drastically change the outcome, based on effective dps within those ranges.

It's like saying that blasters are unfair because they have the most paper dps. Sure they do, if we all orbit each other at 1500m and blaze away.

Range and effective dps within that range are just as important as their paper EFT dps. It's one of the reasons why EFT Warrior is an insult. Because it doesn't tell the whole story.



"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#594 - 2013-05-02 19:03:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Not true. really. A Nightmare is pretty much the only situation in which Tachyons really work




you speak at now. but in odyssey the paladin will become this option too.

and with hard work and some other weaks in compare, even the abaddon can reach this goal.

and btw, rogue drones have EM as highest weakness. so Sanchas and Rogue Drones are good for ratting with amarr Ships in 0.0 space.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#595 - 2013-05-02 19:09:31 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Not true. really. A Nightmare is pretty much the only situation in which Tachyons really work




you speak at now. but in odyssey the paladin will become this option too.

and with hard work and some other weaks in compare, even the abaddon can reach this goal.

and btw, rogue drones have EM as highest weakness. so Sanchas and Rogue Drones are good for ratting with amarr Ships in 0.0 space.


Meh, Rogue Drones are really in their own category.

But good, there is no reason the Paladin shouldn't be able to fit those. It costs about as much as a Nightmare.

So what's the big deal? Ratting isn't exactly the issue here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2013-05-02 19:36:27 UTC
PvE ratting is an issue, it's part of the reason CCP proposed these minimum changes to weapon systems.

That being said, it's not an issue at the Nightmare/Paladin level, more at the t1 BS level.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#597 - 2013-05-02 22:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Regolis wrote:


425mm Railgun I
48 km range
24 km falloff
21 GJ activation GJ
9.56 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.01010625 rad/sec tracking


Tachyon Beam Laser I
44 km range
20 km falloff
95 activation GJ
12.5 rate of fire
4.5 damage modifier
0.01392 rad/sec tracking


I'm sorry .. where in the list is the Tachyon Medium and small weapons? Oh I know ... THEY DON'T EXIST ... Which means the balance point for 425mm Rails is MEGABEAMS. The Tachyon Beam laser is a unique weapon and should be balance separately.

Stop trying to be Bouh 2.0


Rails.
Dual 250.
350
425.

Lasers.
Dual Heavy.
Mega
Tachyon.

Hey look, 425's are actually the match to Tachyons. Don't care which side of the argument you are trying to back here, as I really can't work out your point, but please, work with the actual facts.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#598 - 2013-05-02 22:21:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Hey look, I don't care if my weapon is 20% better than yours, it's on the same scale if we look at an arbitrary classification, so it should be as easy to fit.

Following this reasoning, AC should do 20% more dps. Just saying.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#599 - 2013-05-02 22:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
double post, sorry
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#600 - 2013-05-02 22:28:03 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Hey look, I don't care if my weapon is 20% better than yours, it's on the same scale if we look at an arbitrary classification, so it should be as easy to fit.

Following this reasoning, AC should do 20% more dps. Just saying.

& where have people said, especially myself, that it should be just as easy to fit and exactly the same cap costs?
Answer; We haven't, thats your own paranoia talking. We just want the fitting & cap to be more reflective of the small difference. Not still set to the old days when Tachyons did double the damage of everything else.