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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#561 - 2013-05-02 12:04:22 UTC
Beam Lasers have a better tracking then rails

that better archetype tracking leads to better overall bonus from TE or TC or similar.

Beam Lasers have more dps then rails

Beam Lasers have more alpha dmg then rails

Beam Lasers need less ammo then rails

i guess Railguns have the advantage for hitting better in falloff and need less cap and PG, but thats all.

and now you all want lesser cap and PG ? that would be unbalanced if you ask me

btw i hope the medium railgun info comes out soon. cant wait for knowing what ccp plans to do with them.
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#562 - 2013-05-02 12:20:28 UTC
The CandyGirl wrote:
The way i see it there are really 2 options.

1) fix lasers so they are more in line fitting and cap usage wise to other weapons.

Or

2) buff beam laser damage by a lot.... and give every amarr ship a huge cap booster bay. Make tachs out DPS everything sub cap while they are firing. Also have it so the apoc is the only bs that can fit 8 Tachs barely with no power grid mods/ implants



in times long forgotten lasers used to have a good edge and that was THE OPTIMAL RANGE.projectiles and hybrids were not like that,but now they can hit at the same ranges just aswell.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#563 - 2013-05-02 12:28:38 UTC
well besides the obvious fittings/cap issues with lasers they could do with a slight buff to their stats to remain more competitive.
- besides scorch their ammo doesn't really make lasers worthwhile using.
- buff optimal range to all ammo besides scorch
- add a little falloff to them
- buff tracking a little
- reduce ROF for damage increasing the overall damage output by about 10%.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#564 - 2013-05-02 12:38:57 UTC
Alkyria Decile wrote:
I see a lot of people that want even better fitting and cap use out of lasers but personally i think it might be neat if instead they just got some more tracking/range and a little more damage instead. So people using non lasers use tracking computers to compensate for range while amarr use cap rechargers so they can fire, and in lows you use fitting mods to fit the big dps guns instead of using damage mods to make you big guns high dps.

A total re-work of all lasers to work in this fashion is probably way out of scope for odyssey but it would be nice if weapons systems weren't always missiles + bcu's and possibly painters or guns + heat sink* + tracking enhancer/computer.

I figure if they could get lasers + cap + pwg fittings to be about equal to other turrets in current set ups it would go a good ways against the ever so dreaded homogenization.


Hey, that's what I wanted to say xD

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#565 - 2013-05-02 12:48:22 UTC
Lower the fitting of tachs to mega pulse (actually not quite to that point, maybe a 200-500 difference higher), size up the others from that point, and raise the total cap of amarr bses to be at least 1/3 higher than the closest competitor as far as capacity goes. Done

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#566 - 2013-05-02 12:48:36 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Beam Lasers have a better tracking then rails

that better archetype tracking leads to better overall bonus from TE or TC or similar.

Beam Lasers have more dps then rails

Beam Lasers have more alpha dmg then rails

Beam Lasers need less ammo then rails

i guess Railguns have the advantage for hitting better in falloff and need less cap and PG, but thats all.

and now you all want lesser cap and PG ? that would be unbalanced if you ask me

btw i hope the medium railgun info comes out soon. cant wait for knowing what ccp plans to do with them.


I believe you misunderstand what people are asking for with Beam Lasers.
People are not asking for Beams to use less Cap than rails.
People are not asking for Beams to have lower PG needs than rails.
People are asking for the Cap & PG needs to be more in line.

When you say 'better' DPS, the DPS advantage is basically 0 for Megabeams. 18% for Tachs.
Alpha..... I really don't see the Alpha.
Ok, so they need 'less' ammo. As someone has pointed out it is approx 4.5-5 minutes for a 425 Rail to need reloading. So you aren't using much ammo at all either.

So the 'Beam Advantages' you list are all slight or practically non existant advantages.

Yet the Disadvantages are crazy huge. Like double the PG, Quadruple the cap if we look at Tachs vs 425's.
People want those Disadvantages pulled into the same realm. If they have an 18% DPS 'advantage' then the Cap disadvantage should not be quadruple, it should be somewhere around double the cap cost at most.
The Power grid should be within the same 18% range. Megabeams should have cap somewhere comparable to 350 rails, not more cap than a 425 Rail.

The disadvantages should still exist, but as they exist now, they are huge mountain sized disadvantages to the weapons, in all sizes of beams. They should be trade offs yes. But they aren't trade offs now, they are totally crippling.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#567 - 2013-05-02 15:23:21 UTC
you are kidding right ?

1. Tachyon Beams have a Far better Tracking then 425 Rails
2. Zero Reload Time
3. with T1 Crystals Zero Costs
2. Tachyon Beams can reach 1000 DPS with T1 Crystals on a Abaddon Shocked
3. Abaddon has 26250 powergrid. Hyperion has 19687. you think about that ?
4. The PG difference between Apoc and Mega is similar
5. Amarr ships has a better cap
6. the T2 and Faction Crystals are Cheaper for the number of Shots in Compare to Hybrid ammo.

so you have 18% more dps, more tracking, less reload time, less ammo cost, more alpha dmg, and ships with more PG and Cap, and just want more advantages ?

then please cry for a railgun buff too. because if ccp listen on you, railguns will be outclassed.


the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#568 - 2013-05-02 15:42:34 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:

the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol


Better compare that to a vindicator that's at least a Pirate faction ship, too....

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#569 - 2013-05-02 15:42:43 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
you are kidding right ?

1. Tachyon Beams have a Far better Tracking then 425 Rails
2. Zero Reload Time
3. with T1 Crystals Zero Costs
2. Tachyon Beams can reach 1000 DPS with T1 Crystals on a Abaddon Shocked
3. Abaddon has 26250 powergrid. Hyperion has 19687. you think about that ?
4. The PG difference between Apoc and Mega is similar
5. Amarr ships has a better cap
6. the T2 and Faction Crystals are Cheaper for the number of Shots in Compare to Hybrid ammo.

so you have 18% more dps, more tracking, less reload time, less ammo cost, more alpha dmg, and ships with more PG and Cap, and just want more advantages ?

then please cry for a railgun buff too. because if ccp listen on you, railguns will be outclassed.


the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol



Fine. Make the powergrid the same on Amarr ships as other races after you reduce the fitting by 30% on lasers.

Since you didn't read this thread I'll sum up. Megabeams are the equivalent of the 425mm Rail except they require 3x the power to run. Even with better capacitors (Not really anymore but that's another argument) the ships cap breaks just firing the guns. Most if not all Gallete ships can fit and run a MWD (even with the cap penalty) and still fire all their guns. You prolly still can't see it so I'll simplify even further.

Amarr ships break their cap with their guns. Not MWD and armor repper and guns. JUST THE GUNS.

Now let me address 6. Cheaper ammo ... in PVP you can carry 500 rounds with rails if you want. I ALWAYS have to carry my crystals. When you die in PVP you lose maybe 1 million in ammo. When I die in PVP I lost all my crystals typically around 12 mil in crystals since I can't break my T2 ammo stack into 50 or 500 shots.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#570 - 2013-05-02 15:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
Debora Tsung wrote:
Antimatter Launcher wrote:

the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol


Better compare that to a vindicator that's at least a Pirate faction ship, too....


are you kidding ?

vindicator has the highest damage bonus about all BS ingame

best other gallente bs has 25% on 8 turrets

vindi has 37,5% on 8 turrets

so the vindi as balance base for gallente BS not fair

we balanceing the weapons for all ships and not just for the vindicator.

Regolis wrote:
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
you are kidding right ?

1. Tachyon Beams have a Far better Tracking then 425 Rails
2. Zero Reload Time
3. with T1 Crystals Zero Costs
2. Tachyon Beams can reach 1000 DPS with T1 Crystals on a Abaddon Shocked
3. Abaddon has 26250 powergrid. Hyperion has 19687. you think about that ?
4. The PG difference between Apoc and Mega is similar
5. Amarr ships has a better cap
6. the T2 and Faction Crystals are Cheaper for the number of Shots in Compare to Hybrid ammo.

so you have 18% more dps, more tracking, less reload time, less ammo cost, more alpha dmg, and ships with more PG and Cap, and just want more advantages ?

then please cry for a railgun buff too. because if ccp listen on you, railguns will be outclassed.


the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol



Fine. Make the powergrid the same on Amarr ships as other races after you reduce the fitting by 30% on lasers.

Since you didn't read this thread I'll sum up. Megabeams are the equivalent of the 425mm Rail except they require 3x the power to run. Even with better capacitors (Not really anymore but that's another argument) the ships cap breaks just firing the guns. Most if not all Gallete ships can fit and run a MWD (even with the cap penalty) and still fire all their guns. You prolly still can't see it so I'll simplify even further.

Amarr ships break their cap with their guns. Not MWD and armor repper and guns. JUST THE GUNS.

Now let me address 6. Cheaper ammo ... in PVP you can carry 500 rounds with rails if you want. I ALWAYS have to carry my crystals. When you die in PVP you lose maybe 1 million in ammo. When I die in PVP I lost all my crystals typically around 12 mil in crystals since I can't break my T2 ammo stack into 50 or 500 shots.


Megabeams are the equivalent of the best railguns ? dont make me laught. Big smile

then give me railguns with 18% more dps and higher PG and Cap consume. otherwise no balance without issues for the Tachyons. Blink

and btw, ammo is not just for pvp ;)
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#571 - 2013-05-02 15:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
dont know how to delete doublepost
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#572 - 2013-05-02 16:03:27 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
you are kidding right ?

1. Tachyon Beams have a Far better Tracking then 425 Rails
2. Zero Reload Time
3. with T1 Crystals Zero Costs
2. Tachyon Beams can reach 1000 DPS with T1 Crystals on a Abaddon Shocked
3. Abaddon has 26250 powergrid. Hyperion has 19687. you think about that ?
4. The PG difference between Apoc and Mega is similar
5. Amarr ships has a better cap
6. the T2 and Faction Crystals are Cheaper for the number of Shots in Compare to Hybrid ammo.


1. Only about 40% better Tracking, thats only 1 TC
2. No, you need to click, thats more then zero seconds
3. Constant cost not Zero
2. You cant fit 8 tachyon beams on a Abaddon, you need Fitting Mods for that
3. You can fit your 425mm Rail on a Hyperion, no one cares of the difference, if you can fit it
4. Same as 3
5. Only about 5% more Cap, but the Cap usage is Huge
6. With T2 Crystals you have about 1000 Shots, so its 1000ISK per Shot. Faction about 4000 Shots, thats 250 ISK per shot. No advandage on T2, only on Fraction Ammo
The CandyGirl
Candy's Toy Shop
#573 - 2013-05-02 16:29:46 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
The CandyGirl wrote:
The way i see it there are really 2 options.

1) fix lasers so they are more in line fitting and cap usage wise to other weapons.

Or

2) buff beam laser damage by a lot.... and give every amarr ship a huge cap booster bay. Make tachs out DPS everything sub cap while they are firing. Also have it so the apoc is the only bs that can fit 8 Tachs barely with no power grid mods/ implants


1) Not equal to other races but at least in the same hemisphere (not DOUBLE the PG and TRIPLE the cap usage as rails).

2) Like I said above, they've tried that and eventually they nerfed laser damage back in line with other weapons but didn't change their fitting. Will likely not happen again as they'd have to make every Amarr ship be 8 turret or severely nerf the PG of Nightmares and Paladins.


Unless something has changed paladins can't fit 4 tachs I tried it back in November while I was care bearing. Couldn't get 4 tachs and a tank on it

Being a smartass is always better than being a dumbass!
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#574 - 2013-05-02 16:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
@ Girl. after odyssey you can fit them on your Paladin.

Bucca Zerodyme wrote:

1. Only about 40% better Tracking, thats only 1 TC
2. No, you need to click, thats more then zero seconds
3. Constant cost not Zero
2. You cant fit 8 tachyon beams on a Abaddon, you need Fitting Mods for that
3. You can fit your 425mm Rail on a Hyperion, no one cares of the difference, if you can fit it
4. Same as 3
5. Only about 5% more Cap, but the Cap usage is Huge
6. With T2 Crystals you have about 1000 Shots, so its 1000ISK per Shot. Faction about 4000 Shots, thats 250 ISK per shot. No advandage on T2, only on Fraction Ammo


1. thats your argument ? then give every gallente ship an extra mid slot for the TC. Lol thanks
2. after 40 shots i got 5 second reload time with 425 rails. you got zero reload time after 40 shots.
3. zero with T1 ammunition that is the most use for pve with a hyperion/megathron because faction/T2 ammo on a 8 turret ship in pve will make more loss then win.
4. fitting mod or imps for 18% More DPS and better Tracking ? YES I WANT !!!!
5. if you dont want to fit an modul that increase your PG, then use Mega beams.
6. i cant do more DPS with 425 rails then you, even if you take Mega Beams. the balance is given.
7. the megabeams has a bigger disadvantage vs the 425mm rails because of the cap, but FAR more tracking !
8. lol faction ammunition for 250isk per shot ? Lol you dont know the market. T1 Antimatter Charge L cost 220-250 isk per shot actually
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#575 - 2013-05-02 16:35:49 UTC
Quote:

Megabeams are the equivalent of the best railguns ? dont make me laught. Big smile

then give me railguns with 18% more dps and higher PG and Cap consume. otherwise no balance without issues for the Tachyons. Blink

and btw, ammo is not just for pvp ;)



Why is it the Gallente guys always doubletalk between Megas and 425s?

It's like they love the fact that Megas are almost statistically much worse, then every time we ask to fix that, they point to Tachyons and tearfully scream:

"THERE!!!! THAT"S THE GUN THAT TOUCHED MY RAILGUNS!!!"

Seriously, quit spinning this issue.

Even if they could be fit equivalently easily (Rails are retardedly easy to fit in comparison, because guess what? PG is harder to come by than CPU), Tachyons would be little more than competition to 425s.

Always with the crying, like if somehow our guns are remotely usable then your guns will disappear from the meta. Sheesh, quit the histrionics, for once. Have an intelligent discussion with regurgitating the long hence disproved talking points of the fools from 40+ pages ago. All you are doing is recycling the same tired old nonsense.

I already said this, several times, but since apparently we don't listen...

If they were powerful, they'd be used. This game has no dark horses, it's all been tried by someone.

They're not used. Ergo, they're not good.

Hell, you can't even fit a full rack of them. All we want is to be able to fit our own guns, just like you can. Why should we be denied this? Just because you're afraid of competition? Sorry, that's not good enough.

Slay the sacred cow.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#576 - 2013-05-02 16:38:51 UTC
Quote:
3. zero with T1 ammunition that is the most use for pve with a hyperion/megathron because faction/T2 ammo on a 8 turret ship in pve will make more loss then win.


Thinks the Hyperion still has 8 turrets...

Seriously, stop the lying. You can't post on the Energy Turrets rewrite thread and then ignore the Gallente changes halfway down the screen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#577 - 2013-05-02 16:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
@ Girl. after odyssey you can fit them on your Paladin.

Bucca Zerodyme wrote:

1. Only about 40% better Tracking, thats only 1 TC
2. No, you need to click, thats more then zero seconds
3. Constant cost not Zero
2. You cant fit 8 tachyon beams on a Abaddon, you need Fitting Mods for that
3. You can fit your 425mm Rail on a Hyperion, no one cares of the difference, if you can fit it
4. Same as 3
5. Only about 5% more Cap, but the Cap usage is Huge
6. With T2 Crystals you have about 1000 Shots, so its 1000ISK per Shot. Faction about 4000 Shots, thats 250 ISK per shot. No advandage on T2, only on Fraction Ammo


1. thats your argument ? then give every gallente ship an extra mid slot for the TC. Lol thanks
2. after 40 shots i got 5 second reload time with 425 rails. you got zero reload time after 40 shots.
3. zero with T1 ammunition that is the most use for pve with a hyperion/megathron because faction/T2 ammo on a 8 turret ship in pve will make more loss then win.
4. fitting mod or imps for 18% More DPS and better Tracking ? YES I WANT !!!!
5. if you dont want to fit an modul that increase your PG, then use Mega beams.
6. i cant do more DPS with 425 rails then you, even if you take Mega Beams. the balance is given.
7. the megabeams has a bigger disadvantage vs the 425mm rails because of the cap, but FAR more tracking !
8. lol faction ammunition for 250isk per shot ? Lol you dont know the market. T1 Antimatter Charge L cost 220-250 isk per shot actually


You know something? I will take this apart piece by piece.

#1, they already have one more mid slot than we do.

#2 O...k...? Guess what chuckles? Our ships STOP SHOOTING after 70 shots, because the cap use you think is perfectly appropriate is so crippling.

#3 a total misdirection, and a deliberate on at that. No one uses T1 crystal ammo. People use I.N. Multi, and Scorch, because almost everything else is weaksauce.

#4 Ok. Trust me, you'll switch back. Tracking isn't worth s*** on long range guns, because tracking is useful at... *drumroll* short range! If you are sniping, tracking doesn't do a thing! :) Also, sacrificing 5 slots (two for fitting, three rigs for cap) in exchange for a single Tracking Computer worth of benefit, is entirely unfair.

#5 so... you are telling me, fit Mega Beams? No. If I want to use Tachyons, I should actually be able to bolt them onto a battleship without gimping it. You still haven't told me why an unfair situation should continue being unfair, you are spinning like a laithe instead.

#6 an outright lie, no need to further address.

#7 ...already mentioned.

#8 who cares? seriously, who gives a dead rat's rear end?

So, the sum of your complaints are:

"You haz trakking so its fair."

Yep, still not buying it. Not from you, not from that utter moron Bouh Revetoile (whom I would suspect you are an alt of, since you are regurgitating his exact statements but with better grammar), and not from anyone else who tells me that 300% higher cap use, and vastly higher powergrid requirements are equal to a tiny amount of tracking... on snipe guns.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#578 - 2013-05-02 17:21:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
3. zero with T1 ammunition that is the most use for pve with a hyperion/megathron because faction/T2 ammo on a 8 turret ship in pve will make more loss then win.


Thinks the Hyperion still has 8 turrets...

Seriously, stop the lying. You can't post on the Energy Turrets rewrite thread and then ignore the Gallente changes halfway down the screen.


i help your argumentation in fact with that

my main argument is the dps

Kronos = 441 dps
old hyperion with 8 x 425 Tech 2 and Antimatter Charge L = 441 dps
New hyperion = 360 dps
Abaddon/Nightmare/paladin = 502 dps
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#579 - 2013-05-02 17:28:08 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
3. zero with T1 ammunition that is the most use for pve with a hyperion/megathron because faction/T2 ammo on a 8 turret ship in pve will make more loss then win.


Thinks the Hyperion still has 8 turrets...

Seriously, stop the lying. You can't post on the Energy Turrets rewrite thread and then ignore the Gallente changes halfway down the screen.


i help your argumentation in fact with that

my main argument is the dps

Kronos = 441 dps
old hyperion with 8 x 425 Tech 2 and Antimatter Charge L = 441 dps
New hyperion = 360 dps
Abaddon/Nightmare/paladin = 502 dps


Let's see... The Hyperion had 10 effective turrets before the change. (8 turrets, +25% bonus)

It now has... 9 (6 turrets, +50% bonus)

And you are ignoring the fact that it has one more lowslot that it used to have.

They are about par, regardless of whatever numbers you can fabricate.

And I'm so glad to see that the Abaddon, Paladin, and Nightmare are exactly the same dps, I mean, that's totally true... Roll

It's not like they have different effective ranges, or anything like that, or what their applied dps is based on those ranges.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#580 - 2013-05-02 17:33:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

They are about par, regardless of whatever numbers you can fabricate.


made my day Big smile

mathematics is on my side. over and out.