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explosive damage. why?
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Freya Kaundur
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-01 04:21:38 UTC
i know there are physics and stuff in eve that makes absolutely no sense.

but i sit here drinking tonight and i open up my fitting window and for some dumb reason i look at resistances and wonder why do we have a explosive damage type. no matter how you cut it a explosion is a mix of kinetic and thermal damage. and yes i know there are other ways to splode things. but it all involves kinetic damage.

kinetic thermal em damage all makes sense cuz you can theoretically have each without the other. so i propose we find a 4th damage type. but i cant realy think of any other then like chemical or cold. or mabee and a nanite damage type. but that would be getting into dots in eve and i dont think i like that.

but this is my opinion. mabee some people can add to it or help me rationalize it.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-05-01 04:26:09 UTC
Freya Kaundur wrote:
but i sit here drinking tonight...


Drink more.
Freya Kaundur
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-05-01 04:34:52 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Freya Kaundur wrote:
but i sit here drinking tonight...


Drink more.



already on it
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-05-01 05:01:49 UTC
Because.
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-01 05:05:30 UTC
BECAUSE **** YOU AND YOUR FANCY SHMANCY FISICS THAT'S WHY

THE ONLY REASON YOU NEED IS U S AND A.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-05-01 05:06:25 UTC
Heh. Pretty much like "why laser does EM and not MORE Therm/heat" or why most of the projectile weapons don't deal lots of Kin dmg aside to Titanium Sabot.

There's a lot of things that are simply as they are.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#7 - 2013-05-01 05:08:02 UTC
I'm thinking from a Dev's point of view that explosive damage is one of large, hot shockwaves that ripple through whatever it comes into contact, yes being both kinetic and thermal damage, but with a twist.

Kinetic damage from a gameplay standpoint is where you throw a slug at relativistic velocities that impacts a small area.

Thermal damage from the same standpoint is a sudden burst of raw heat, also in a reasonably small area.

Explosive, on the other hand, deals both in a larger area, using less impulse energies with energies that tend to linger. Think of it this way, Explosive is more like DPS while Kin/Thrm are more like Alpha.


now, I should get to drinking, or bed, or both.

Where the science gets done
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-01 06:43:27 UTC
This is quiet amusing as I was having the fight of my life relieving myself of 6 tacos from the local Mexican place and the thought popped isn't the damage caused by an explosion kinetic force, and then I started thinking about missiles and how there would literally be no difference between a kinetic and explosive missile in terms of payload, all of which was interrupted by the fiery infernos of dirty spicy tacos.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#9 - 2013-05-01 07:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
tankus2 wrote:

Explosive, on the other hand, deals both in a larger area, using less impulse energies with energies that tend to linger. Think of it this way, Explosive is more like DPS while Kin/Thrm are more like Alpha.


This example bothers me despite the fact that it's just an example because DPS is the realm of hybrids (kin/therm) and alpha is the realm of arty (explosive).

Why? Why must you do this to me?


tankus2 wrote:

now, I should get to drinking, or bed, or both.


I could go for another drink myself.
Ivoto
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-05-01 07:34:21 UTC
"What's physics, precious??"
-CCP
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-05-01 07:55:41 UTC
EM is also a mix of kinetic and thermal.

Mostly thermal.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-05-01 07:59:44 UTC
tankus2 wrote:
I'm thinking from a Dev's point of view that explosive damage is one of large, hot shockwaves that ripple through whatever it comes into contact, yes being both kinetic and thermal damage, but with a twist.

Kinetic damage from a gameplay standpoint is where you throw a slug at relativistic velocities that impacts a small area.

Thermal damage from the same standpoint is a sudden burst of raw heat, also in a reasonably small area.

Explosive, on the other hand, deals both in a larger area, using less impulse energies with energies that tend to linger. Think of it this way, Explosive is more like DPS while Kin/Thrm are more like Alpha.


now, I should get to drinking, or bed, or both.
This is why Quake ammo is mostly explosive while Void is an even mix of kinetic and thermal.

I also wonder why Microwave deals less damage than Standard.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-01 09:58:33 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
EM is also a mix of kinetic and thermal.

Mostly thermal.

Your suggesting that Electro-Magnetic damage is a mixture of a physical impact between objects and heat? I get the heat side of it, but not the kinetic...

Let's have a look at what CCP have actually said:
Eveolopedia wrote:
Electromagnetic damage is based on electromagnetic radiation.

Thermal damage pertains to applied heat on an enemy target.

Kinetic damage pertains to physical impacts of an object against another.

Explosive damage pertains to damage caused due to the explosions of a munition against a target.


So, explosive damage can be surmised to be a combination of shrapnel and concussive presure. I believe the OP was questioning the validity of explosive presure waves in the vacuum of space. Hence his reference to the lack of realistic physics in much of EVE. And it's a good question. As there is no matter, (or a negligable amount at best,) in space for the shockwave to pass through, there is no shockwave. But if the explosion occurs against, (or better yet, within,) the target, the explosion will have the desired effect. It would not be very efficient though.

Oh, and the heat generated by the explosion is unimportant. In fact, there may not even be any.

Friends
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#14 - 2013-05-01 14:45:14 UTC
[i think you hit the nail on the head hakan
in order for their to be sound, you need to compress the air in waves. once those waves reach a certain speed (faster than the speed of sound), they become a detonation and that is really destructive (as seen from bombs and more commonly, in the knocking and pinging inside older car engines.)
for em/therm, you dont need atmosphere, for kinetic, once again, you dont need atmosphere, but for the explosive side...its more from the detonation which relies heavily on the "shockwave" to rip things apart. since there is no atmosphere to compress....all you would get would be the shrapnel from the detonating device and a small pulse maybe depending on the ammount of oxygen inside the warhead/bullet.

all of the damage types should be looked at imo.

lasers- you have some em that just causes a sunburn, and some that are used as surgical lasers. so the whole lasers thing should be varied between crystals. if i want to do more thermal, i switch to a "cutting crystal" and focus the beam differently.

hybrids- hybrids use magnetics to chunk debris at their enemies. this insinuates that the charges must be magnetized. ok wait...dont we have lead? any item can be placed inside of a magnetic sabot and flung. so why not have a "warhead" that explodes in EM damage on top of kinetic/therm? or exploding warheads in general? they can be like minie and change whatever damage type by changin the ammo. stick the new ammo in a sabot and fling it. hell, if you get in a situation, stick someones nike in a sabot and do "stink" damage...not even a DC II will protect against that.

missiles- they need to put the multi damage missiles in that are in the data base. ive seen bpc's from sleeper space that were 75 kinetic/ 75 explosive. its been a long time coming. we could use those missiles now. you could even make a new damage type that isnt common. typical therm/kinetic, kinetic/explo, em/thermal and a new explosive/em.

and the minie ammo...i dont know what to say about this except incorperate a lil more kinetic..as was mentioned.
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#15 - 2013-05-01 15:16:07 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i think you hit the nail on the head hakan
in order for their to be sound, you need to compress the air in waves. once those waves reach a certain speed (faster than the speed of sound), they become a detonation and that is really destructive (as seen from bombs and more commonly, in the knocking and pinging inside older car engines.)

Ah, but EVE has Sound in Space(TM). During one of the tutorial missions (Air Show), they explain their reasoning for sound in space as such: "Sound in space. Because soundless space isn't cool".

Mole Guy wrote:

for em/therm, you dont need atmosphere, for kinetic, once again, you dont need atmosphere, but for the explosive side...its more from the detonation which relies heavily on the "shockwave" to rip things apart. since there is no atmosphere to compress....all you would get would be the shrapnel from the detonating device and a small pulse maybe depending on the ammount of oxygen inside the warhead/bullet.

Considering the way ships accelerate and maintain velocity, I'd wager EVE space isn't really empty. Rather, it seems to be comprised of a material with the viscosity of water. This is why I jokingly refer to EVE as "Internet submarines".

Mole Guy wrote:

all of the damage types should be looked at imo.

I completely disagree with this. The damage types are a vehicle for the intended purpose of blowing **** up. The names of these vehicles don't really matter, so long as they actually server their purpose, which they do.

Mole Guy wrote:

lasers- you have some em that just causes a sunburn, and some that are used as surgical lasers. so the whole lasers thing should be varied between crystals. if i want to do more thermal, i switch to a "cutting crystal" and focus the beam differently.

Congratulations, you just described the difference between Radio and Multifrequency crystals.

Mole Guy wrote:

hybrids- hybrids use magnetics to chunk debris at their enemies. this insinuates that the charges must be magnetized. ok wait...dont we have lead? any item can be placed inside of a magnetic sabot and flung. so why not have a "warhead" that explodes in EM damage on top of kinetic/therm? or exploding warheads in general? they can be like minie and change whatever damage type by changin the ammo. stick the new ammo in a sabot and fling it. hell, if you get in a situation, stick someones nike in a sabot and do "stink" damage...not even a DC II will protect against that.

missiles- they need to put the multi damage missiles in that are in the data base. ive seen bpc's from sleeper space that were 75 kinetic/ 75 explosive. its been a long time coming. we could use those missiles now. you could even make a new damage type that isnt common. typical therm/kinetic, kinetic/explo, em/thermal and a new explosive/em.

and the minie ammo...i dont know what to say about this except incorperate a lil more kinetic..as was mentioned.


Again, these damage types exist for balance. Also, everything exhibits magnetic properties above a certain threshold.

This is just getting ridiculous. You're basically wanting every race to be able to do every type of damage just as well as their racial preferred damage.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.
Freya Kaundur
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-05-01 17:32:50 UTC
my argument is not about explosive shock waves. its that no matter how you cut it a explosion is a mix of thermal and kinetic damage. kinetic from the delivery system hitting and then the subsequent blast wave also causing kinetic damage. and also any shrapnel causing kinetic damage. and then possible thermal damage due to the type of the warhead.

i argue that you can have em thermal and kinetic damage singularly. but an explosion is not a damage type.

and i always looked at the warp drive causing a grav well around the ship and that's why explosives can cause damage. and also why ships bounce of each other instead of colliding. kinda like 2 magnets pushing apart.

they could change it to penetration damage or something like that.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#17 - 2013-05-01 18:24:29 UTC
If you want to deal with physics, you are going to fall down deep in a rabbit hole.

For one thing, there is no such thing as Therm, Kin, Explosive or EM---- There is just the application of energy. This energy can be expressed in several forms, but they can all be easily converted into one form or another. What 'type' of energy it is largely depends on the scale of it's application... exciting things on a molecular level is thermal(which is how emp damages as well), above molecular levels you get the focused application of kinetic and then the less focused explosive. The only things that change are the scale and time period that the energy is applied.

If we are talking about the rubber science of EVE, much of it does not even match up with itself. The same technology that makes a tractor beam possible should be capable of producing energy weapons that deal 'kinetic' energy, and spread and pulsed in such a way as to duplicate the effect of an explosion.

Projectiles deliver payloads of any damage type. Hybrids should be able to do the same. Read the lore on hybrids, the only difference between them and projectiles is that they use a magnetic bubble to deliver their payload over much greater distances, or else shred it for a shotgun blast effect in the case of blasters. There is no reason I should not be able to load whatever is in an EMP projectile shell or missile warhead into the casing of a railgun round and fire it.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-05-01 18:57:00 UTC
The person who designed Eve initially was a ****, we should just accept this.

What makes a rocket not a light missile?
Why are torpedoes different from other missiles enough to warrant a totally different name?
How come Eve isn't a submarine game?
How come the ships aren't symetrical?
Why are asteroid belts semicircles that don't match with their orbit around a planet at all?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#19 - 2013-05-01 20:37:13 UTC
Another "I want RL physics in my fluid universe submarine spaceship game' thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-05-01 21:01:59 UTC
Eve Devs has imbued this game with their advanced knowledge of physics. We all know a mmo must have 4 types of magic damage - Light, Fire, Earth, and... well, you know, Boom Boom.
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