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Should login/logout trick keep existing in the game?

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MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#1 - 2013-04-30 20:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: MrDiao
S1
"Stay on character selection screen"
....
...
..
"Ok he warped to the gate, everyone login! "
(pew pew pew)

S2
spy: "They have 20 dps ships and 5 logis camping on the gate"
FC: "But I didn't see anything in local"
spy: "They logged out on the gate and stay in character selection screen"
.......
......


Hiding oneself or a fleet from local by stay in login screen has been a trick in EVE that sort of popular, since few years ago.
However, this kind of game play, namely players getting advantages by staying in a pre-game state, sounds very abnormal for a game.

Of course you can't login/logout real life (without committing suicide please), but EVE is a game, there should be ways for people to come from real life, and leave to real life. Also not only in EVE, in many mmo games, players "abused" the login/logout mechanism for various other purposes, typically escaping from fights, scouting, or hiding the power from opposite scouts.

It's obvious that CCP doesn't like people to avoid a coming fight/save a tackled cap by simply logout, of course, since it decreases the frequency of pvp by decreasing the amount of potential targets.

But the login trick is different. It actually increases the amount of preys and the frequency of pvp by decreasing the predictability of a fight. For example, you may thought there were only 10 hostiles with no logis camping on the gate, but when you jump and engage, you found 20+ extra of them login and raped your fleet, yes as a mini titan bridging.

So the attitude of CCP on this trick might be blurred, as it brings more pvp and engagements, but it is an abnormal game-play at the same time.

So what do you think? Like it? Use it? Hate it or just have been a prey? Big smile
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-04-30 20:46:07 UTC
For whatever reason, many freighters in Jita did not employ this tactic during the burn.

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Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#3 - 2013-04-30 20:48:01 UTC
this isnt an Eve poblem, this is an MMO problem. Ive played several where login/out is becoming a common war or defense tactic. You think it's bad here, go and read up the threads at Entropia about logouts in space.

There really isnt much an MMO can do aside from locking you or out, and that would be the death of MMO's
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-04-30 20:51:03 UTC
MrDiao wrote:
S1
"Stay on character selection screen"
....
...
..
"Ok he warped to the gate, everyone login! "
(pew pew pew)

S2
spy: "They have 20 dps ships and 5 logis camping on the gate"
FC: "But I didn't see anything in local"
spy: "They logged out on the gate and stay in character selection screen"
.......
......


Hiding oneself or a fleet from local by stay in login screen has been a trick in EVE that sort of popular, since few years ago.
However, this kind of game play, namely players getting advantages by staying in a pre-game state, sounds very abnormal for a game.

Of course you can't login/logout real life (without committing suicide please), but EVE is a game, there should be ways for people to come from real life, and leave to real life. Also not only in EVE, many players "abused" the login/logout mechanism for various other purposes, typically escaping from fights, scouting, or hiding the power from opposite scouts.

It's obvious that CCP doesn't like people to avoid a coming fight/save a tackled cap by simply logout, of course, since it decreases the frequency of pvp by decreasing the amount of potential targets.

But the login trick is different. It actually increases the amount of preys and the frequency of pvp by decreasing the predictability of a fight. For example, you may thought there were only 10 hostiles with no logis camping on the gate, but when you jump and engage, you found 20+ extra of them login and raped your fleet, yes as a mini titan bridging.

So the attitude of CCP on this trick might be blurred, as it brings more pvp and engagements, but it is an abnormal game-play at the same time.

So what do you think? Like it? Use it? Hate it or just have been a prey? Big smile





There are a couple issues here. Your ship appears at a random spot, then had to warp to wherever you logged off. During this time, you can't stop your ship's warp..


For fast align ships, this may not be long enough. For slow align ships, you can actually get caught in that location and are unable to fight back because you can't stop the warp.

It used to be your ship would appear WAY far away from log off, but people would bookmark these places as super deep safe where they could hide from scanning.


So, yeah... I'd like to see something added to foil the log on games. However, I'm not sure what that mechanic could be that would not be exploited by players.
Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC.
F O R M I C I D A E
#5 - 2013-04-30 21:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Haseo Antares
I don't have a problem with it...if that is how people choose to spend their time then good for them I say. If it is fun and doesn't violate EULA then do it I say.

Anyone that has lived in wormhole space for any length of time has developed a paranoia that makes them think everything is a trap. In my very first wormhole corp every member was assigned a title with a percentage of how much "spy" they were (my recruiter was 40% spy, I was 70% spy, and the CEO himself was 25% spy lol). Hell I caught myself trying to d-scan inside of a 1.0 station yesterday and I haven't even laid eyes on a wormhole in months (finishing up school). My advice to people worried about any kind of trickery is to HTFU and have fun.

We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode what you just said.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-30 21:12:38 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
S1
"Stay on character selection screen"
....
...
..
"Ok he warped to the gate, everyone login! "
(pew pew pew)

S2
spy: "They have 20 dps ships and 5 logis camping on the gate"
FC: "But I didn't see anything in local"
spy: "They logged out on the gate and stay in character selection screen"
.......
......


Hiding oneself or a fleet from local by stay in login screen has been a trick in EVE that sort of popular, since few years ago.
However, this kind of game play, namely players getting advantages by staying in a pre-game state, sounds very abnormal for a game.

Of course you can't login/logout real life (without committing suicide please), but EVE is a game, there should be ways for people to come from real life, and leave to real life. Also not only in EVE, many players "abused" the login/logout mechanism for various other purposes, typically escaping from fights, scouting, or hiding the power from opposite scouts.

It's obvious that CCP doesn't like people to avoid a coming fight/save a tackled cap by simply logout, of course, since it decreases the frequency of pvp by decreasing the amount of potential targets.

But the login trick is different. It actually increases the amount of preys and the frequency of pvp by decreasing the predictability of a fight. For example, you may thought there were only 10 hostiles with no logis camping on the gate, but when you jump and engage, you found 20+ extra of them login and raped your fleet, yes as a mini titan bridging.

So the attitude of CCP on this trick might be blurred, as it brings more pvp and engagements, but it is an abnormal game-play at the same time.

So what do you think? Like it? Use it? Hate it or just have been a prey? Big smile





There are a couple issues here. Your ship appears at a random spot, then had to warp to wherever you logged off. During this time, you can't stop your ship's warp..


For fast align ships, this may not be long enough. For slow align ships, you can actually get caught in that location and are unable to fight back because you can't stop the warp.

It used to be your ship would appear WAY far away from log off, but people would bookmark these places as super deep safe where they could hide from scanning.


So, yeah... I'd like to see something added to foil the log on games. However, I'm not sure what that mechanic could be that would not be exploited by players.



I solved it years ago.... ships don't warp off or vanish. They just sit there and not under concord protection Pirate

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#7 - 2013-04-30 21:14:47 UTC
Moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-04-30 21:17:59 UTC
Erm, well,...


How on earth would you prevent logoff traps without pissing off people who are just playing normally? Or who are reacting to a jabber ping about a fight? or who are logging in for a couple of minutes to change skills/reset extractors or something?
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#9 - 2013-04-30 23:21:46 UTC
here's a thought - for the first, say..... 30 seconds (?) after loggin on (if you log on in space....) you can't activate any modules, but you can warp off to somewhere... nor can you target anything, nor can you join a fleet.....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2013-05-01 00:46:52 UTC

Log off / Log in mechanics should not be used for PvP.

CCP has made great strides in the past years to help improve this loophole:

Granted, I've only been playing since 2008, so I don't know much about the previous five years, but in that time I've seen them:

When I came into game, if you jumped into a gate camp, or saw something on scary on scan at your warp-to destination, you could simply log off to save your ship. Your opponents had 1 minute then to scan you down and destroy you.

Since then, you now complete your warp (elminating the most common technique to create truly deep safes) before ewarping. They have 15 minute aggression timers that now follow you from system to system, which you can now be gained and infinitely renewed by "new acts" of aggression.

There are essentially two remaining log-in/out techniques remaining....

Some trick Freighters are currently employing to keep their ships safe from suicide ganking (this should probably be nerfed too)

and

Log in traps.... to be honest, log in traps do not bother me.... at ALL... because there people are putting their ships into harms way rather than employing some tactic to "get safe". They are simply using the login mechanics to circumvent one of the other major issues in game today.... Local chat being used as an infallible intel tool.

Log in traps are pretty much akin to AFK Cloaky camping in my book... cheesy, craptastic tactics that are implemented to circumvent EvE's cheesy craptastics intel system.... Address the disease, and people won't employ the work-arounds!

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#11 - 2013-05-01 03:30:39 UTC
Solution: never allow an e-warp return (the one that returns you to your original position when you log in) to warp you onto the same grid as a celestial object. 500 or 1000km away (and non-aligned) should do the trick. This should make dirty ambushes more difficult without disrupting normal gameplay by a significant amount.

Assuming it's needed. I can't say, I've never seen it myself and have no idea how common it is.

Overhaul Dscan!
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-05-01 04:46:17 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Solution: never allow an e-warp return (the one that returns you to your original position when you log in) to warp you onto the same grid as a celestial object. 500 or 1000km away (and non-aligned) should do the trick. This should make dirty ambushes more difficult without disrupting normal gameplay by a significant amount.

Assuming it's needed. I can't say, I've never seen it myself and have no idea how common it is.


This would be the death knell of supercapitals. Log in 500-1000km outside of the POS you logged it out in? Pfft.

In that case, I'm all for it. Death2allsupers.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-05-01 05:01:17 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
here's a thought - for the first, say..... 30 seconds (?) after loggin on (if you log on in space....) you can't activate any modules, but you can warp off to somewhere... nor can you target anything, nor can you join a fleet.....



Why punish people logging back in after a client crash? In some situations, that 30 seconds is long enough to lose your ship.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-01 08:03:32 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
here's a thought - for the first, say..... 30 seconds (?) after loggin on (if you log on in space....) you can't activate any modules, but you can warp off to somewhere... nor can you target anything, nor can you join a fleet.....
Actually, when you login, you are teleported 100,000km away and at zero velocity, and you cannot control your ship's navigation while it accelerates, enters warp, and brings you back to where you were. This takes at least 30 seconds even for a frigate, longer for larger ships. I don't understand what the complaint is about.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#15 - 2013-05-01 08:16:20 UTC
Got beaten by 20-man logoff-trap?
- Next time, collect intel more carefully.

Just cause it looks empty doesn't mean you are safe. Especially with logoff-traps being one of the simplest and most basic maneuvers well known and usable by everyone, where is the balance problem. It's just one of many ways to hide your numbers.