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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#181 - 2013-04-30 12:19:50 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
BTW, quick question on the new auto launch/formation feature.
Why does it launch 7 and not 8 probes?
Scanning with 8 probes allows you to use some extremely efficient setups and is faster than a 7 probe setup by a good way if you know what youre doing.

Even if its just cos the formations are setup for 7 probes, you CAN still launch 8 probes right?



This is what I wanted to know also. It's a shame because I don't think many people are shouting loudly enough about this because most people aren't really into scanning and just use 7 probes. I can think of at least two 8 probe setups that need to be added and probably much more. And then when people who actually know what they are talking about ask for these more advanced features that need to be included we get hit by a tirade of insults from grubby little beasts telling us how easy scanning is.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#182 - 2013-04-30 12:22:02 UTC
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:
And now we are back at the start of the thread. New scanning mechanisms are possibly too fast, which shifts the risk-reward of the attacker to his advantage. How much "too fast" should be analysed as soon as this hits SiSi as CCP Greyscale mentioned before. Then CCP has to decide if this change in risk is good or bad.


Exactly.

As it is right now a good prober will only show you his probes less than 20 seconds before and after his scanning. A few seconds for the probes to move into position, a few seconds to do the scanning, a few seconds to move the probes away while he's in warp to you. Again, I myself am a prober, NOT the target so for me I'd love it to see probing done faster as it benefits me personally, but because I'm not a hypocrite I realise that it would be severely silly so I'll raise my voice against it.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#183 - 2013-04-30 12:26:52 UTC
It's not something we can comment on until the changes are in effect and with a change this drastic, it's going to take a while to get it right.

Oh god.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#184 - 2013-04-30 12:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Garresh wrote:
That's...actually not true. Now I dunno if I can qualify as a "master scanner", as my scan skills in game are not maxed, but I've been scanning for almost 4 years. That entire time, scanning is the only element of eve that has always been a part of my play style. I've ninjad, I've explored lowsec, I've ganked in wormholes, I've lived in wormholes.

There are nuances to scanning, but they have almost nothing to do with the Ui. I don't see any changes to scanning that will negatively impact me.

But scanning is an in depth art, and I will provide concrete examples of why.

With decent skills in a good ship 7 probes in the shape of a cross with 1 in the middle, 1 above the middle and 1 below the middle is the only formation you ever need. Most of the time you can roughly pinpoint everything in the system in one scan in that formation, and then focus your scannning down.

Nope, you are incorrect and Garresh is correct.

Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
In the examples you actually used twice you mentioned a "cross" which is the same shape each time and the only one you mentioned which I haven't seen before is a "sifting" pattern to see what's in system. I'm amazed you've ever managed to gank anyone if you are using your probes to see what is in system before scanning them instead of using your D-scanner. Maybe it's because your experience is only in wormholes where people don't know you're in system and Lowsec where people are used to having neutrals in local and are more likely to have fools who think they are safe in anomalies.

So I'm sorry, I don't buy your premise and I don't believe your examples are concrete at all.


And I'm telling you and many other scanners will tell you that they are concrete. Yes every scanner has a slightly different method, but the sifting example he gave is very concrete indeed.

This is what I dislike, when people who don't really understand try telling everyone else how simple and easy things are and how everyone is wrong. Just listen to what these people like Jack Milton and Garesh are saying and you will learn something.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#185 - 2013-04-30 12:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Riot Girl wrote:
It's not something we can comment on until the changes are in effect and with a change this drastic, it's going to take a while to get it right.


Thing is that it doesn't need changing, making it faster makes is silly and making it slower makes no sense in the light of this whole thread and subject.

My problem is that it's done by Greyscale who throughout his years as a dev has had an agenda when it comes to core game play. Everything he ever touched as a main contributor always, always chipped away at EVE's core principle of being a player driven PVP sandbox for people who require no hand holding. If you let him he'd make missions instanced so people can just PVE without being bothered by others.

So yes I'm biased, I don't at all trust CCP to do it right so if the lazy clowns shout about how they'd love to have things easier I'll raise my voice against it.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#186 - 2013-04-30 12:41:09 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:

- understanding and making use of tracking takes time and effort, lets just remove all that nonsense and make it so that turrets always hit for full damage. It also means less time lost, double win!

The faster something goes the harder it is to hit. That's all you NEED to understand, to this day I get by just fine killing stuff knowing that without knowing how to calculate my opponent's radial velocity

Ok, time to stop taking you seriously anymore on this thread. If you don't even appreciate something as fundamental to gameplay as the tracking mechanics then I don't expect you will have much meaningful to add to probe mechanics.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#187 - 2013-04-30 12:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Saheed Cha'chris'ra
I updated the first post of this thread, summing up all the changes which have an impact on the scanning time.

Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:

Which of the new changes in Oddyssey are increasing the speed of scanning?
a) an additional probe (now 8 probes launchable at the same time)
b) Button to deploy all probes at once
c) Probe-Formation-Presets (optional, you can still position the probes yourself)
d) UI changes in general so you can scan faster
e) new scan-modules which buff your scanspeed and efficiency
f) scanning skills are buffed (Example:
Current: Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 40% reduction in scan time.
After: Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 45% reduction in scan time.)


The list grows longer and longer. What?
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#188 - 2013-04-30 14:00:27 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Do you really want me to link your shitfits and comment on them?

Also, your reply tot the tracking thing shows your understanding of it all. Congrats, you're part of the 99%.


Feel free, the last person who thought he'd be the big man and try to comment on my killboard fits went home with his tail between his legs and looking like an idiot, I'm happy to let you do the same.


Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Nope, you are incorrect and Garresh is correct.


And I'm telling you and many other scanners will tell you that they are concrete. Yes every scanner has a slightly different method, but the sifting example he gave is very concrete indeed.

This is what I dislike, when people who don't really understand try telling everyone else how simple and easy things are and how everyone is wrong. Just listen to what these people like Jack Milton and Garesh are saying and you will learn something.



It's good to see an NPC alt posting about ideas telling me I'm wrong with no evidence to actually back up what they are saying, and even no explanation of why they believe what they are saying is correct.

Either pipe down or start posting with some actual content instead of "nope you're wrong, I'm an NPC alt".

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Kuroder Ortnagar
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2013-04-30 14:07:20 UTC
will we be able to save some of our own probe formations?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#190 - 2013-04-30 14:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Do you really want me to link your shitfits and comment on them?

Also, your reply tot the tracking thing shows your understanding of it all. Congrats, you're part of the 99%.


Feel free, the last person who thought he'd be the big man and try to comment on my killboard fits went home with his tail between his legs and looking like an idiot, I'm happy to let you do the same.



Thank you.


T2 mods but meta 0 guns. truly inspiring
that co-pro makes no sense, it's not needed at all. Well done
non plated Retri... amazing. Could it kite without the plate? not really, it's an AF and Amarr so it's too slow
3 CPR on this one, no words....

And the list goes on and on and on. You seem to think that because you're in EXE that it somehow rubbed off on you and you now know wtf you're doing, you obviously don't. And as I, and others, have stated earlier; learn a thing or two about tracking first. You might actually learn something from one of my youtube vids, linked in sig. It's generally aimed at newbies but... yeah.

Either way, you open your mouth a lot but don't necessarily back it with knowledge so stay quiet from now on. Thanks. Lets get back on topic.
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#191 - 2013-04-30 14:37:45 UTC
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:


TL;DR: Scanning ships down might be too quick now.

What do you think Question

o7


Unless I missed something the probe scanner still runs a few seconds depending on your skills so it won't get faster considering you can mark most ships in one scan if you slim their location with d-scan first. Now if they made d-scan somehow easier to use then yes scanning down ships would be easier.

Preset formations aren't going to change anything for me because I usually have probes out and set way out of scan range before targets even show up. On the occasions where I don't have them out already this new system will save me a couple seconds because I only have to hit the button once to launch all probes....I don't care what preset formation they poop out into as long as I can drag them into my own afterwards.

As far as finding the sites explorers will go to?...those aren't sites they are premarked traps. I need no probes for those.


On the PVE tengu ninja explorer side it looks like it will take out a little bit of the tedium of just seeing if there are any signatures even in the system? That usually takes 1 probe and 1 scan unless it's a huge system so again it saves the time it takes to safe up and run one scan?
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#192 - 2013-04-30 14:38:39 UTC
Kitchner, dont be so aggressive please. And Vilnius, even if you dont like his fittings, everyone can play eve on his own way (pvp in industrials?). Don't judge him if he hasn't asked for help regarding his fittings.

Kuroder Ortnagar wrote:
will we be able to save some of our own probe formations?


Interesting indeed. Maybe CCP Greyscale can give us an answer?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#193 - 2013-04-30 14:41:52 UTC
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:
Kitchner, dont be so aggressive please. And Vilnius, even if you dont like his fittings, everyone can play eve on his own way (pvp in industrials?). Don't judge him if he hasn't asked for help regarding his fittings.

Kuroder Ortnagar wrote:
will we be able to save some of our own probe formations?


Interesting indeed. Maybe CCP Greyscale can give us an answer?


I will judge anyone who opens his mouth spouting his "knowledge" on EVE, because if you let clowns dictate what happens you end up with crap.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#194 - 2013-04-30 15:23:04 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
It's good to see an NPC alt posting about ideas telling me I'm wrong with no evidence to actually back up what they are saying, and even no explanation of why they believe what they are saying is correct.

Either pipe down or start posting with some actual content instead of "nope you're wrong, I'm an NPC alt".


Ok if you don't like being told by an alt, then go and read Garresh or Jack Milton's posts again. Jack is in AHARM so that should tell you something if you actually have a clue about scanning. So it is not just me saying this to you.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#195 - 2013-04-30 15:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
Vilnius Zar wrote:


T2 mods but meta 0 guns. truly inspiring

This is fitted to be heavy tackle, not to do any damage. Of course though by looking at my killboard you'd know during that fight I didn't even really do much damage to anyone as I was tackling a carrier right? And you'd also know that I fit that at the last minute using what was available in our market in CR right? Of coruse not.

that co-pro makes no sense, it's not needed at all. Well done

Check EFT again you moron, it's needed.

non plated Retri... amazing. Could it kite without the plate? not really, it's an AF and Amarr so it's too slow

So what I should do is add a plate onto it and make it even slower? That's good thinking, well done you. I'm sure I wont get killed by anything with half decent tracking then.

3 CPR on this one, no words....

The ship needed to keep up with a perma MWD shield fleet and that's what was needed. Of course if you can suggest a better way to stay perma MWD and have a shield tank still without using the lows like that I'm all ears


And the list goes on and on and on. You seem to think that because you're in EXE that it somehow rubbed off on you and you now know wtf you're doing, you obviously don't. And as I, and others, have stated earlier; learn a thing or two about tracking first. You might actually learn something from one of my youtube vids, linked in sig. It's generally aimed at newbies but... yeah.

Either way, you open your mouth a lot but don't necessarily back it with knowledge so stay quiet from now on. Thanks. Lets get back on topic.


Considering that most those fits have been both theory crafted and actually tested on the field and work fine (apart from the assault frig which was just something I threw together myself for a random roam) I suggest you're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. You can't even tell when a Co-processor is needed on a bomber or not, and all that involves is reading EFT.

So not only do your criticisms actually make no sense, with the "maybe you should plate your assault frig!" one being the closest to anything resembling a comment that can be taken seriously, none of them have any impact at all on what my knowledge of probing is. So well done you.

You talk like you're some high and mighty expert, but you have no idea what you're on about.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

ok if you don't like being told by an alt, then go and read Garresh or Jack Milton's posts again. Jack is in AHARM so that should tell you something if you actually have a clue about scanning. So it is not just me saying this to you.



It's not the fact you're an alt, it's the fact you're an alt who's idea of a constructive response is "nope, u r wrong" and just leaving it at that. I already responded to those posts with specific reasons why I disagree and you like others have just ignored them.

Either justify your points or don't post as you're not adding anything.

The fact that your alliance leader wopnt let you post so you hide behind an NPC alt is sad but irrelevent to the debate.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#196 - 2013-04-30 16:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Guys. Please. Mind your personal stuff somewhere else and lets get back to topic. Blink

I got some news on Probe-Formation-Presets:
CCP Greyscale: "There's two presets in Odyssey currently: one is seven arranged in a plane, for doing an initial sweep over as much of the system as possible, while the other is a gunstar for pinpointing individual signatures."
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#197 - 2013-04-30 16:53:51 UTC
If you can switch between the formations easily enough it means you can just use the first and then switch to the second over whichever area the anomaly is that you want.

Personally I think the changes will be great.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#198 - 2013-04-30 17:19:03 UTC
So you're actually going to defend the reasoning to fit meta 0 guns, ok?

That bomber fit does NOT need a co-pro, without it you have some 60 cpu left.

And what's that amazing 0 dps, ecm drone Bellicose gonna do in that fleet of yours? Be an extra target to be shot at?


Also "it works fine" generally is the explanation given by an idiot, I guess it fits.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#199 - 2013-04-30 17:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vilnius Zar wrote:
That bomber fit does NOT need a co-pro, without it you have some 60 cpu left.
Maybe he intended to go for an all-T2 fit and just forgot? You'd be about 2% over at that point. P

wtfspelling?!
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#200 - 2013-04-30 17:38:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
That bomber fit does NOT need a co-pro, without it you have some 60 cpu left.
Maybe he intended to go for an all-T2 fit and just forgon? You'd be about 2% over at that point. P


Going "oops" is fine although... you know, a bit silly. But actually defending it using all kinds of big words like "I'm da fitting god, question me and I will strike thee down"? No.