These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Jump Clones - A New Beginning (yes i have used the search field)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#1 - 2013-04-29 07:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: BlakPhoenix
WARNING: Large wall of text incoming, if you do not wish to read, please jump to the 2nd post for the tl:dr version.

The dreaded jump clone and it's 24 hour static mechanic has been hotly debated for a long time, and I think it's time we really got it nutted out a new-age version for it. Force projection, Malcanis' law, rent-seeking and the newbie are all large parts of why existing options have failed thus far, so instead of shooting down all current suggestions, let's open a real forum for great ideas to fix this horrible mechanic.

I have trawled through an awful lot of old threads, most suggest the same thing.

Here is a short-list of those suggestions:

  • 12 hour timer
  • Timer changes on skillpoint pilot has (longer timer for more sp)
  • Timer based on jumps / light years
  • Timer based on number of JC
  • Timer reduced by skills
  • Other idea's that have already been shot to pieces


Really though, what is the role of the Jump Clone? What is it meant to facilitate and prohibit?

CCP are the only ones who can truly answer this question however from the communities perspective I believe we also play a large part in what we feel is true to the game. I am looking for your input in this thread on all aspects of it, but especially so in the following list.

Jump cloning should:
Enable limited, but instantaneous deployment to another solar system where your JC is located.
Have serious consequences for repeated jumping.
Encourage specialisation without disabling the "jack of all trades" route.

Jump cloning should not:
Allow power creep of older pilots over younger pilots (or attempt minimise this effect).
Allow force projection for Corps & Alliances.
Discourage players from playing EVE Online for a whole day or X hours.



So what does this leave us with?

According to the first jump clone rule, jumping multiple times within a specified time period should be discouraged and harshly penalised. This can be done in multiple ways however I feel the strongest of this is to increase the cooldown of a jc the more frequently it is used. What's an example of this method?


  1. Player X jumps at 0100 1st March EVE time, this creates a 3 hour cooldown on his JC.
  2. Player X jumps at 0400 1st March EVE time, this creates a 12 hour cooldown on his JC.
  3. Player X jumps at 1600 1st March EVE time, this creates a 48 hour cooldown on his JC.
  4. Player his the maximum JC cooldown time of 48 hours.


As you would have noticed, I have increased the maximum cooldown time from 24 hours to 48 hours, I feel that as a trade off for having such a short initial cooldown, it is only right to increase the maximum cooldown for repeated jumps of clones.

This uses a factor of 4 to increase the JC cooldown until the cooldown timer reaches it's maximum (48 hours). This makes it easier for players to jump, but also heavily penalises multiple jumping. It does however have issues, it affects players large and small the same. It also won't stop force projection from fleets and older players. So here I present my 2 tiered approach. It allows multiple jumps to be made, with an increasing cooldown. It also however takes into account how long ago you made your last jump. If you took a jump recently, it will increase your cooldown as per above, if not, your cooldown will stay low. This allows people to jump multiple times if they are prepared to take a large hit to their overall travel plans, but won't hurt those who travel one jump every now and then. When a jump is made, the original cooldown starts (3 hours), however a "reset" timer is also created. If the JC is used within the reset timer, the JC lockout increases to the next level. If you wait your reset timer out, your CD resets to 0. Confused? Here's an example...

Cooldown Levels:

  1. 3 hours (18 hour reset)
  2. 12 hours (36 hour reset)
  3. 48 hours (72 hour reset)


  1. Player X jumps at 0100 1st March EVE time, this creates a 3 hour cooldown on his JC - 18 hour reset timer.
  2. Reset timer expires at 1900 1st March EVE time, no penalty for jumping after this time.
  3. Player X jumps at 2000 1st March EVE time, this creates a 3 hour cooldown on his JC - 18 hour reset timer.
  4. Player X jumps at 0200 2nd March EVE time, this creates a 12 hour cooldown on his JC as it is within reset timer - reset timer now 36 hours.
  5. Player X jumps at 1400 2nd March EVE time, this creates a 48 hour cooldown on his JC as it is within reset timer - reset timer now 72 hours.
  6. Player X jumps at 1400 4th March EVE time, this creates a 48 hour cooldown on his JC as it is within reset timer - reset timer now 72 hours.
  7. Reset timer expires at 1400 7th March EVE time, no penalty for jumping after this time.


This penalises multiple jumps harshly if they are made within the reset timer, trading short term travel for a long term cooldown. This allows Alliances to jump to protect their space however further jumping will mean they are stuck without any form of JC abilities for a long time (48-72 hours) which would leave enemies in a position to attack easily. It also means that older pilot's cannot use the JC to set their +5 implants overnight, without restricting high sec players from jumping into a free clone for some PVP and back to their +5 clone so long as they're willing to take a 36 hour cooldown (everything for a price, right).
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#2 - 2013-04-29 07:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: BlakPhoenix
I feel that this is a step in the right direction, however it allows people to get away with jumping as far as they like which increases the power for older pilots vs younger pilots and also allowing Alliances to jump the entire universe and back in 3 hours with only a 36 hour cooldown - not good! To counter this happening we can add a third tier to the cooldowns, distance.

CD = Base cooldown for JC use
D = Distance in light years to your JC from your current system

New cooldown = CD + D / 4

Here are these number based off a jump from Jita to a 0.0 system - O31W-6:

Distance = 29.348 light years

29.348 / 4 = 7 hours 22 minutes added to the cooldown.

Cooldown list is as follows for this jump route:

  1. 10 hours 22 minutes (18 hour reset)
  2. 19 hours 22 minutes (36 hour reset)
  3. 48 hours (72 hour reset)*

*No matter how far you jump you cannot exceed the 48 hour maximum jump timer.


This further penalises large groups from jumping anywhere in the universe and then being able to jump to safety within a matter of hours. If you chose to jump clone from the very top of the EVE universe to the very bottom, this would mean a 1st tier cooldown of 29 hours 30 minutes, not too much more than what it is currently, but not so little that it is inconsequential.

This system is more complex than the current system, however I believe with the help of a GUI in game. You would end up with 2 timers, one for when you can jump again, and one for when your cooldown level resets to 0. Calculation of your next cooldown would be automated and displayed before you activate a clone so it is clear what sort of cooldown you are taking before you take it.



Final words & TL;DR

This system increases the ability to use clones in interesting and valuable ways without allowing older pilots or large alliances to steamroll multiple systems. It rewards those who use it infrequently with a slightly reduced timer over current day times (18 hours vs 24 hours) while enabling people to jump in quick succession if they so wish, at the penalty of increased time before their next jump (up to 48 hour penalty). It enables people to jump into a PVP clone and back into a high sec clone in 3 hours, yet then forces them to wait 39 hours before they can do it again, however if the need arises (eg. a wardec) you are able to fight for your Corp/Alliance, so long as you bite the bullet for 48 hours afterwards.

The final Cooldown Timers:

  1. 3 hours + D (18 hour reset)
  2. 12 hours + D (36 hour reset)
  3. 48 hours + D (72 hour reset)


D = Distance jumped in light years / 4


Comments, critiques and flames are all welcome however constructive comments will receive replies.

BlakPhoenix
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-30 06:14:34 UTC
I like the principle of allowing a quick re-jump at increased total cooldown time. But I'm not too hot about putting jump distance into consideration here.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-04-30 06:42:26 UTC
Frankly I don't see any need for the complicated system. The benefits of it are pretty much zero or even negative, while at the same time it is just more time consuming to implement and is another needlesly complicated system to maintain. Just remove the timer entirely from local clone changes and have a simple system/constant timer for actual long distance teleportation.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-04-30 07:44:04 UTC
BlakPhoenix wrote:
Really though, what is the role of the Jump Clone? What is it meant to facilitate and prohibit?


I struggle with this point, I don't think the game would suffer if JCs were removed entirely. Won't happen, ofc.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2013-04-30 15:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Gypsio III wrote:
BlakPhoenix wrote:
Really though, what is the role of the Jump Clone? What is it meant to facilitate and prohibit?


I struggle with this point, I don't think the game would suffer if JCs were removed entirely. Won't happen, ofc.

I'd like to see Jump Clones removed. I'm currently at war with another corp and I can get from my home in nullsec to Amarr and back in 1 minute with no risk of being attacked by another player... That's a total of 46 jumps. Jump clones are bad.

Oh god.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#7 - 2013-04-30 15:15:32 UTC
In the days before warp to 0 and the hisec highways being redesigned, it could take you half a day to go from one end of the galaxy to the other. Implants were an issue, but not much of one. Jump Clones were designed to allow you to get across the vastness of space on an emergency situation.

One of the major issues JC's were designed to resolve was that actually surviving in Nulsec, independent of hisec, was practically impossible. Between isk generation, the old regional escrow system, the ore distribution, the lack of operational assets in most areas ... you could own nulsec, but you just couldn't really live there.

Nowadays, JC's have changed in role. Sure, they are used for travel, but the vast majority of the time they are used to protect our implants. Implants that players like me would otherwise not use if the risk was too high.

Some players pvp in a nightmare. I pvp in cheap geddons. Screw officer fits and expensive implants. It's all about risk management.



If you remove JC's, what happens? It takes an hour at best to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other, less if your in a cov ops. If you can't ensure the safety of your implants, the trade will be more implants lost on twinks and less loss on practical players. Probably a loss in the high-end implant market, and a gain in the low-end market.

I personally would prefer to keep my implants, but to be honest, I'd be less risk-averse without them.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-05-01 08:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
In response to what Ruze said, I have to express agreement, and I think that perhaps the best direction to move in is to fix all of the problems that cause jump clones to be a necessity, and then actually greatly increase the time before you can jump again. Maybe a week, maybe a month.

I have suggested a fix for the implants problem: cheaper pirate training implants that you can obtain in nullsec but which will be removed from your clone if CONCORD finds them on you. Still expensive to train high, but you can at least keep yourself +1 higher than you normally would in Nullsec - at least that's the price range I'm shooting for. Same price as highsec implants 1 lower.

This creates the problem of people training in nullsec with the cheaper implants, and simply not undocking. To that I say that the highsec problem of implant training remains bigger, just because Nullsec sovereignty changes. People usually have to undock once in a while. So no, not a bigger problem than what we already have, not adding to the problem in any way.

Industry is already getting a huge boon in nullsec, and if it's not enough CCP will undoubtedly send more boosts in that direction.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#9 - 2013-05-01 08:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here also. It's an idea I thought to alter Jump Clones to be more functional and no longer break core game principles. I'm not sure if this idea will work though, I might have overlooked something quite important.

Riot Girl wrote:
Remove the cooldown on Jump Clones completely. Allow players to jump between their clones whenever they wish. However! Jump clones can no longer be used to fast travel to other locations. Informorph Psychology will allow the player to store 5 clones in a single station, up to 5 stations at level 5 (a total of 25 clones across 5 stations). The player can switch freely between the clones stored at their current location, but they cannot jump into clones at any other location unless they travel to that location first.

This is my suggestion for a solution to allow players to be risk averse (saving their implants) without being allowed to avoid all risks (no instant warp across the galaxy).


In other words; You can only use Jump Clones when you are in the same location as they are.

Oh god.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-01 09:25:25 UTC
if anything jump clones should be adjusted so that they are longer than the longest possible reinforcement timer (51 hrs irrc). currently because the minimum time to kill anything in 0.0 is roughly 21hrs. most if not all defending pilots will have the ability to JC.

my personal proposal would be to extend the JC cooldown to around 60 hrs.

this means that no matter how big your space is, providing your JC's are set in good positions you should be able to defend attacks on three fronts within 24hrs~

Defend A, JC and defend B, wait 24 hours - battle time, JC and defend C

the choice to JC anywhere should be a strategic decision that leaves you in some way vulnerable. if your in high sec that means you will need to operate in your + 5 clone for a while increasing the risk something bad might happen, if your in 0.0 it means frivolously JCing around will leave you incapable of responding to an attack immediately, and will bring down your ability for a single player to defend multiple areas.

Defend A, JC and defend B, wait 60hrs - battle time.... , battle for C must be piloted to or missed.

all of this means it becomes harder to force project without either actually flying (god forbid). you use of logistic chains. and it would allow those smaller gangs time to actually achieve something.
It would also mean there would be more sense in multi-pronged attacks if you look at the larger scale, because it would be far harder to defends 2 or 3 areas being attacked in a small time-frame, not impossible, just harder.

For everyone that argues that this just makes players not play while cooling down, that is a false argument. it is the players choice not to play in this time not a restriction that the game put in place making them unable to play. people are just too lazy / risk averse and not playing for one night is not a massive issue.
extending it would for most, for a reduction on JC reliance, and 'should' encourage the players to use all of their clones more, because moving between them would be a more significant choice.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#11 - 2013-06-18 22:52:41 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here also. It's an idea I thought to alter Jump Clones to be more functional and no longer break core game principles. I'm not sure if this idea will work though, I might have overlooked something quite important.

Riot Girl wrote:
Remove the cooldown on Jump Clones completely. Allow players to jump between their clones whenever they wish. However! Jump clones can no longer be used to fast travel to other locations. Informorph Psychology will allow the player to store 5 clones in a single station, up to 5 stations at level 5 (a total of 25 clones across 5 stations). The player can switch freely between the clones stored at their current location, but they cannot jump into clones at any other location unless they travel to that location first.

This is my suggestion for a solution to allow players to be risk averse (saving their implants) without being allowed to avoid all risks (no instant warp across the galaxy).


In other words; You can only use Jump Clones when you are in the same location as they are.



I have thought about this option too. It would help to fix the way that they are used by large alliances but it would also limit a lot of manoeuvrability in EVE. Having a way to move vast distances quickly I feel should be an option, just one with a price to pay. The ability to only just to a clone on your station/system also doesn't bode too well with the RP side that EVE is a very futuristic universe and they can beam you to a new clone when you die that's lightyears away but not when you want it.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#12 - 2013-06-18 22:56:35 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:
if anything jump clones should be adjusted so that they are longer than the longest possible reinforcement timer (51 hrs irrc). currently because the minimum time to kill anything in 0.0 is roughly 21hrs. most if not all defending pilots will have the ability to JC.

my personal proposal would be to extend the JC cooldown to around 60 hrs.

this means that no matter how big your space is, providing your JC's are set in good positions you should be able to defend attacks on three fronts within 24hrs~

Defend A, JC and defend B, wait 24 hours - battle time, JC and defend C

the choice to JC anywhere should be a strategic decision that leaves you in some way vulnerable. if your in high sec that means you will need to operate in your + 5 clone for a while increasing the risk something bad might happen, if your in 0.0 it means frivolously JCing around will leave you incapable of responding to an attack immediately, and will bring down your ability for a single player to defend multiple areas.

Defend A, JC and defend B, wait 60hrs - battle time.... , battle for C must be piloted to or missed.

all of this means it becomes harder to force project without either actually flying (god forbid). you use of logistic chains. and it would allow those smaller gangs time to actually achieve something.
It would also mean there would be more sense in multi-pronged attacks if you look at the larger scale, because it would be far harder to defends 2 or 3 areas being attacked in a small time-frame, not impossible, just harder.

For everyone that argues that this just makes players not play while cooling down, that is a false argument. it is the players choice not to play in this time not a restriction that the game put in place making them unable to play. people are just too lazy / risk averse and not playing for one night is not a massive issue.
extending it would for most, for a reduction on JC reliance, and 'should' encourage the players to use all of their clones more, because moving between them would be a more significant choice.


While that sounds good, what it means is that anyone not in a nullsec alliance, or relying on SOV timers gets screwed over and won't log in if they cant play. I think that really it's SOV that needs to be looked at and changed to not be so hideously boring and cumbersome. This would help remove the SOV issue from jump cloning and JC could be used for more personal reasons.

People will either A, never jump clone unless it's demanded by alliances, thus giving alliances more tools over smaller players, or people will not log in for days. It's a bad design decision to allow players to do something that would lock them out of fun for almost 3 days.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#13 - 2013-06-18 23:14:58 UTC
I favor the simple approach along the lines of 'for each level of infomorph psychology jump cloning cooldown period is reduced by 3 hours' thus at level 5 you can jump every 9 hours with no ill effects.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#14 - 2013-06-18 23:32:11 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I favor the simple approach along the lines of 'for each level of infomorph psychology jump cloning cooldown period is reduced by 3 hours' thus at level 5 you can jump every 9 hours with no ill effects.


This only gives more power to large alliances and Malcanis' law (giving more power to older players than younger players).
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#15 - 2013-06-19 00:21:18 UTC
If we tiptoe around Malcanis' law every time we discuss fixing a game system to not be terrible, we will soon run out of game systems to discuss. Younger players haven't much use for jump clones (and very often they haven't the standings to install any) and training Infomorph to 5 isn't that big of a hardship if they actually want that power for themselves.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#16 - 2013-06-19 00:28:10 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If we tiptoe around Malcanis' law every time we discuss fixing a game system to not be terrible, we will soon run out of game systems to discuss. Younger players haven't much use for jump clones (and very often they haven't the standings to install any) and training Infomorph to 5 isn't that big of a hardship if they actually want that power for themselves.


True, but what about giving huge alliance to much of an easy route to defend SOV? It'll just become a skill any alliance member trains so they can jump more, defend more and attack more than they already can.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#17 - 2013-06-19 00:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
You don't fix sov by messing around with skills that have nothing to do with sov. You fix sov by dealing with the actual problems it has. You also don't balance skills around systems that are broken for reasons that have nothing to do with the skill you're balancing. It's like nerfing shield tanking because rat bounties are too easy to farm.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#18 - 2013-06-19 05:26:43 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You don't fix sov by messing around with skills that have nothing to do with sov. You fix sov by dealing with the actual problems it has. You also don't balance skills around systems that are broken for reasons that have nothing to do with the skill you're balancing. It's like nerfing shield tanking because rat bounties are too easy to farm.


I'm not saying that this will fix SOV at all, SOV needs a complete overhaul. What I'm saying is you don't want an alliance to be jumping 1,000-2,000 people across the entire map every 12-18 hours like lots of people suggest. It's bad enough they can do it every 24. That will be able to happen irrespective of SOV if you reduce the JC timer. That's why we need a more comprehensive system that takes into account how often you jump and the distance you travel.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#19 - 2013-06-19 05:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Between jump bridges and networks of offline titans, I don't think messing with jump clones will have that big an effect on power projection.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#20 - 2013-06-19 11:20:01 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Between jump bridges and networks of offline titans, I don't think messing with jump clones will have that big an effect on power projection.


For the large alliances perhaps. But for the smaller ones in highsec, it does if the timer gets reduced too far. I would be happy with a skill that reduces the time between JC by 5% per level. This would let people weigh how important it is to them to JC more frequently. The nice thing about having an 18 hour JC timer is if you play for 6 hours a day, you can JC when you log off, and when you log back in the next day you can JC again.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
12Next page