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Distance or Dps
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Crying Assassin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-04-28 23:02:01 UTC
as above with regard to the Tengu, would you choose distance or dps for a pve mission runner lvl3/4 solo play?

at the moment i can do 479 dps using t2 HML launchers and t1 ammo they have a range of 88km my targeting range is 112km

or i can fit HAM's t2 x6 and still using t1 ammo get 638dps but they only have a range of 28km

here is the hml fit below
[tengu hml 88km fit]
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Heavy Missile)

10MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Medium Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

3x Ballistic Control System II

2x Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

100x Mjolnir Heavy Missile
100x Nova Light Missile
100x Phased Plasma S
2978x Scourge Heavy Missile


and the ham fit with unfinished mid slots

[Tengu,ham 28km fit]
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

6x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II (Scourge Heavy Assault Missile)

2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

3x Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II

3x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


and advice on what to change on the fits appreciated, i do not really want pimped out faction fits costing billions, i don't have billions :(
stoicfaux
#2 - 2013-04-29 00:23:19 UTC
For every 10 seconds you don't shoot with HAMs but are shooting with HMLs:

638t = 479(t+10)
638t = 479t + 4790
638t - 479t = 4790
159t = 4790
t = 4790 / 159
t = 30s

If you take 10 seconds to get into range with HAMs, it takes 30 seconds of HAM damage to catch up to HML damage (which had a 10 second head start.)

IIRC, with an AB you can go ~680 m/s. To travel 10km takes 14.7 seconds. (Which doesn't count alignment time, nor time to accelerate to full speed.)

However, if you're going to use 3 cap rigs on the HAM Tengu, then just go with the HMLs. Without rigor, flare, TPs, or range rigs for the HAMs, you'll do more applied damage with the HMLs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-29 00:26:10 UTC
Add 4th bcs, use faction bcs, fit ham with jav and 3x range rigs.
Crying Assassin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-04-29 00:27:03 UTC
thanks, i kind of understand what your saying with the math
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-04-29 00:36:10 UTC
I just got t2 hams on my tengy.

900 dps is nice.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Crying Assassin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-29 00:38:58 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
I just got t2 hams on my tengy.

900 dps is nice.


care to post fit?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-29 00:40:24 UTC
Crying Assassin wrote:
thanks, i kind of understand what your saying with the math


Math's off. Hams have better exp radius/exp velocity than hmls post buff/nerf, t1 and t2, both base and with skills. Use 3x range rigs. Medium missile rigs are cheap, even t2 ones cost ~50 mil. You'll get 74km with javs, and more dps.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#8 - 2013-04-29 01:33:35 UTC
Mind posting a HAM tengu fit for L4s? I haven't flown Tengus in L4s in ages but I'm curious how it matches up to HM tengus.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-04-29 01:55:51 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Mind posting a HAM tengu fit for L4s? I haven't flown Tengus in L4s in ages but I'm curious how it matches up to HM tengus.


[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Target Painter II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#10 - 2013-04-29 07:28:33 UTC
I just wanted to point this out. LvL 3's won't make any difference, if you can't do them in a Tengu, then you don't belong in a Tengu. For LvL 4's it still shouldn't matter much as the Tengu is king of small sig radius and fast movement. You should be able to orbit close-ish and still not take anywhere near full damage. I'd say go with what you are best at skills wise, and comfortable with play style and you should be fine... Other than Mission spec hardners, blah blah, you know the rest.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-04-29 14:50:40 UTC
getting close can be dangerous depending on the rats you're facing. Though you shouldnt really be flying tengus for blood raiders anyway I guess.

Art of Explosions
stoicfaux
#12 - 2013-04-30 04:10:13 UTC
sabre906 wrote:


[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Target Painter II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Very nice. 74km range with Javelins versus 70km for HML Fury for about the same DPS and same applied DPS. That does make the HAM Tengu interesting.

I've posted a spreadsheet to crunch the numbers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread


Spreadsheet numbers for HML v HAM (4xCN BCU, 1 PWNAGE TP, Skills V):
First column is launcher + ammo.
Second column is Time to Kill (ttk) in seconds
Third column is Volleys to Kill (vtk)

Pith Eliminator: (big slow battleship)
* HML T1 - 49.8s - 13 volleys
* HML Prec - 49.8s - 13 volleys
* HML Fury - 38.3s - 10 volleys
* HAM T1 - 36.8s - 18
* HAM Javelin - 38.8s - 19
* HAM Rage - 26.6s - 13

Gist General: (small fast battleship)
* HML T1 - 46.0 - 12
* HML Prec - 46.0 - 12
* HML Fury - 34.5 - 9
* HAM T1 - 32.7 - 16
* HAM Javelin - 34.7 - 17
* HAM Rage - 24.5 - 12

Pithum Annihilator: (big slow cruiser)
* HML T1 - 11.5 - 3
* HML Prec - 11.5 - 3
* HML Fury - 7.7 - 2
* HAM T1 - 6.1 - 3
* HAM Javelin - 8.2 - 4
* HAM Rage - 6.1 - 3


Mercenary Commander: (small fast cruiser)
* HML T1 - 11.5 - 3
* HML Prec - 11.5 - 3
* HML Fury - 11.5 - 3
* HAM T1 - 10.2 - 5
* HAM Javelin - 10.2 - 5
* HAM Rage - 8.2 - 4

Arch Gistum Centurion: (elite cruiser)
* HML T1 - 30.7 - 8
* HML Prec - 30.7 - 8
* HML Fury - 23.0 - 6
* HAM T1 - 22.5 - 11
* HAM Javelin - 24.5 - 12
* HAM Rage - 20.4 - 10

Angel Viper: (elite frigate)
* HML T1 - 15.3 - 4
* HML Prec - 11.5 - 3
* HML Fury - 30.7 - 8
* HAM T1 - 20.4 - 10
* HAM Javelin - 24.5 - 12
* HAM Rage - 30.7 - 15

Spider Drone II: (super-fast drone)
* HML T1 - 23.0 - 6
* HML Prec -15.3 - 4
* HML Fury - 42.1 - 11
* HAM T1 - 26.6 - 13
* HAM Javelin - 30.7 - 15
* HAM Rage - 40.9 - 20

tl;dr
* Fury and Javelin are essentially the same for cruisers and up.
* Javelins lose some DPS due ot having to reload more often. Javelins requires almost twice the volleys, but HAMs don't hold twice the ammo as HMLs (40 v 66.)
* T1 HML and Precision trump HAMs against frigates
* HAM Rage clobbers Fury against battleships (by 10s.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-30 05:44:05 UTC
Pretty much what sabre906 wrote. Use Javelins from range, cleaning up smaller targets as you move in, then switch to HAMs as you cross about 40km range barrier and proceed to obliterate everything with Rage's far superior close range dps. Best of both worlds.

If only we could get that with Golem's torpedoes... :(
stoicfaux
#14 - 2013-04-30 12:08:26 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Pretty much what sabre906 wrote. Use Javelins from range, cleaning up smaller targets as you move in, then switch to HAMs as you cross about 40km range barrier and proceed to obliterate everything with Rage's far superior close range dps. Best of both worlds.

If only we could get that with Golem's torpedoes... CNR's cruise missiles:(

Fixed that for you. =P

I, for one, cannot wait until CCP somehow manages to fix the Torpedo Golem.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#15 - 2013-04-30 12:47:28 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
sabre906 wrote:


[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Target Painter II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Very nice. 74km range with Javelins versus 70km for HML Fury for about the same DPS and same applied DPS. That does make the HAM Tengu interesting.

I've posted a spreadsheet to crunch the numbers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread


Spreadsheet numbers for HML v HAM (4xCN BCU, 1 PWNAGE TP, Skills V):
First column is launcher + ammo.
Second column is Time to Kill (ttk) in seconds
Third column is Volleys to Kill (vtk)

snipnumberssnip

tl;dr
* Fury and Javelin are essentially the same for cruisers and up.
* Javelins lose some DPS due ot having to reload more often. Javelins requires almost twice the volleys, but HAMs don't hold twice the ammo as HMLs (40 v 66.)
* T1 HML and Precision trump HAMs against frigates
* HAM Rage clobbers Fury against battleships (by 10s.)


Nice numbers, good to know, I guess in close range missions the HAM tengu is much better. However those missions are the minority and most missions are long-range.

Also, did you factor in the fact that the HML Tengu achieves that range with no rig slots and thus can fit 2 T2 rigors and 1 t1 rigor? (or 2 t2rigors and a t2flare, i never knew which was better)
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-04-30 12:58:34 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Pretty much what sabre906 wrote. Use Javelins from range, cleaning up smaller targets as you move in, then switch to HAMs as you cross about 40km range barrier and proceed to obliterate everything with Rage's far superior close range dps. Best of both worlds.

If only we could get that with Golem's torpedoes... CNR's cruise missiles:(

Fixed that for you. =P

I, for one, cannot wait until CCP somehow manages to fix the Torpedo Golem.



Nah, CNR will be fine come Odyssey, provided CCP doesn't mess it up, it has excellent projection and considerable ranged dps. Problem with Golem is, torpedoes have the same range as HAMs, but Golem only has two rig slots and missiles have no other way of increasing range. This means the maximum achievable range with javelins is something like 60 km, that's it. Even Blasters with null can do better.
stoicfaux
#17 - 2013-04-30 22:30:48 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:

Nice numbers, good to know, I guess in close range missions the HAM tengu is much better. However those missions are the minority and most missions are long-range.

Also, did you factor in the fact that the HML Tengu achieves that range with no rig slots and thus can fit 2 T2 rigors and 1 t1 rigor? (or 2 t2rigors and a t2flare, i never knew which was better)

The HML Tengu had 2xRigor2s and 1xFlare2.

HML Fury w 2xRigor2, 1xFlare2 rigs
* Er 115.7
* Ev 122.4

HAM Javelin
* Er 93.75
* Ev 151.5

I didn't realize just how bad the HML nerf and HAM buff was.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Baggo Hammers
#18 - 2013-04-30 22:37:40 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
I just got t2 hams on my tengy.

900 dps is nice.




Tengy??????? Is that like Pally......or Shammy??? What is that "Y" thing???

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-04-30 22:51:23 UTC
Crying Assassin wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
I just got t2 hams on my tengy.

900 dps is nice.


care to post fit?



not that hard: 6 tech 2 launchers, 4x CN BCUs and some implant relating to missile DPS easily puts you over 900 with scourge furies.

Art of Explosions
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#20 - 2013-05-01 00:34:05 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:

Nice numbers, good to know, I guess in close range missions the HAM tengu is much better. However those missions are the minority and most missions are long-range.

Also, did you factor in the fact that the HML Tengu achieves that range with no rig slots and thus can fit 2 T2 rigors and 1 t1 rigor? (or 2 t2rigors and a t2flare, i never knew which was better)

The HML Tengu had 2xRigor2s and 1xFlare2.

HML Fury w 2xRigor2, 1xFlare2 rigs
* Er 115.7
* Ev 122.4

HAM Javelin
* Er 93.75
* Ev 151.5

I didn't realize just how bad the HML nerf and HAM buff was.



Wow 3 rig slots and HAMs still apply damage much better than HMs, and considering the 70km max range on Javs is pretty good, I guess there's good reason to run HAM Tengu even in longer range missions, you can close the distance while shooting Javs then switch to faction/rage to clean up.

I'm considering fitting a HAM tengu to test out how they compare to each other. Thanks for the spreadsheet, very useful.
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