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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#121 - 2013-04-29 21:20:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
For activities that decidedly aren't, such as missions, we would generally prefer to adjust those features to include more player inputs (and probably outputs, in order to close the circle).

What does that actually mean? I'm guessing you have some idea of the changes you would make to missions to accommodate more player inputs and outputs.

Oh god.
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#122 - 2013-04-29 21:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Ok, care to explain them then if they are so easy? :)

Love all the noobs teaching us how easy scanning is yet when I ask them basic questions none of them reply. ;)

Sure Master of probes!
Wait... I have time to laugh at you thinking you're superior with your basic understanding of probing. But no time to waste to prove anything to someone apparently not even posting with his main.

Also, saying to people disagreeing with you that they are dumb and noobs doesnt make them be dumb and noobs. Just make you look mad, as you apparently like to qualify all this annoying dumb and noobs.
Mardris Fol
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-04-29 22:12:55 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'm using multi-player in a very broad sense, that encompasses basically any feature where the right choice depends on actions made by other players. Playing the market, for example, and all activities relating to that (research, manufacturing, some aspects of PI) are almost completely multi-player activities (excepting only interactions with NPC orders).

For activities that decidedly aren't, such as missions, we would generally prefer to adjust those features to include more player inputs (and probably outputs, in order to close the circle). We don't want to remove the features, we're just usually generally inclined to look for ways to strip out purely single-player mechanics and fill the gaps with multi-player ones. Note that there is extensive use of "generally" and the like here; again, we're case-by-case here, and sometimes there is a necessity to be flexible. In a specific case mentioned above, for example, it's critical that people have things to do when nobody else is around in order to keep people online and build momentum, and if we can't find a way to do this without a pure single-player mechanic, we'll bite that bullet Smile


Thanks for the response.

Exploration is affected by and involves other players even when flying solo. You don't know whether someone is flying just ahead of you and sweeping all the systems clear. In high sec there's tremendous competition to be first to a site and elsewhere you're a PvP target. So to some extent you have to second guess the competing players and the market for the spoils of exploration isn't any less volatile than for produced goods. You're time is money and there's no guaranteed income like there is with missions.

Anyway, are you reducing the probing mini game only to add new mini-games? I've only seen the initial presentation of the hacking challenge but is this a replacement solo-pve experience or will it involve your fleet collaborating to hack the mainframes?
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#124 - 2013-04-29 22:16:54 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
you're talking out your butt. Your "arsenal of skills" is a dsp probe and a guide....please...I suggest you get a new dummy guide when the update goes live.


Someone sounds like they are raging at the end of their keyboard.

Check back in this thread where I've already mentioned 2 or 3 advanced techniques when speaking with greyscale. You obviously missed that as was too busy to rage posting.

I'm not giving dummies like you even more of the advanced techniques. But if you are so great tell me the method for quickly setting up an 8 probe formation?? And tell me how to quickly scan an entire system of over 30 sigs in under 5 minutes?? Let me guess, you won't be able to because you've barely scratched the surface like I said to you before. Now go back to hunting carebears and let us intelligent people continue this discussion.


30 sigs in a system? Oh, I didn't know popping 27 anoms with one scan was part of the arsenal of skills you have. What a joke...

I'll answer your question if you answer a few of mine since you claim to be the pro scanner. How do you ninja probe a ship? What are a couple ways you can find his mission pocket even if he bails? Do missions always spawn in completely random places in a system or do they generally spawn around the same dead space locations?

Now go get your shinebox my wingtips need a spiffy.
mkint
#125 - 2013-04-29 22:18:58 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
(PI) are almost completely multi-player activities


Have you ever even played EVE? Seriously? Like, even once? At least try the tutorials? You do know what PI is right?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#126 - 2013-04-29 22:28:11 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
For activities that decidedly aren't, such as missions, we would generally prefer to adjust those features to include more player inputs (and probably outputs, in order to close the circle).

What does that actually mean? I'm guessing you have some idea of the changes you would make to missions to accommodate more player inputs and outputs.


We have some very vague, hand-wavy ideas, but nothing remotely concrete Smile I for one would be very happy if we can find a way to keep the broad gameplay of missions intact (I don't see us getting away from the core concept any time soon), but find ways for other activities to have an impact on a missioner's daily activity (and for mission-running activity to likewise have an impact on other playstyles), to a degree that mission-running players are gently incentivized to interact with other players more (but are by no means required to). That's about as specific as I think I can be without just making stuff up Smile
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-04-29 22:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'm using multi-player in a very broad sense, that encompasses basically any feature where the right choice depends on actions made by other players. Playing the market, for example, and all activities relating to that (research, manufacturing, some aspects of PI) are almost completely multi-player activities (excepting only interactions with NPC orders).

For activities that decidedly aren't, such as missions, we would generally prefer to adjust those features to include more player inputs (and probably outputs, in order to close the circle). We don't want to remove the features, we're just usually generally inclined to look for ways to strip out purely single-player mechanics and fill the gaps with multi-player ones. Note that there is extensive use of "generally" and the like here; again, we're case-by-case here, and sometimes there is a necessity to be flexible. In a specific case mentioned above, for example, it's critical that people have things to do when nobody else is around in order to keep people online and build momentum, and if we can't find a way to do this without a pure single-player mechanic, we'll bite that bullet Smile


I hope you are aware that there are some groups of individuals who like to throw their hard earned money at CCP in order to play a game primarily by themselves.

These people generally like to mission, mine, and PVP all with only their wits and personal zeal for excellence (or lack there of).

Actually, I know of a few very successful solo players who PVP in faction warfare.

And I suppose I use the term solo vaguely.... As in these people are actually taking advantage of the whole multiplayer aspect of the game by shooting people who they see, but they don't want to be bothered with the cooperation part. As in they don't want to be tied down by an organization that dictates their playstyle.

In that regard I am advising you not to punish people who like to rely on themselves for their activities. Intereaction is nice... I like to yell at people in chat, but don't make the game so you have to join a terribad corp just to undock.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-04-29 22:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
30 sigs in a system? Oh, I didn't know popping 27 anoms with one scan was part of the arsenal of skills you have. What a joke...

I'm talking about 30 sigs. Like I guessed though, you don't have an answer except a snide reply. Now like I said, let us intelligent ones continue this discussion.

Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Now go get your shinebox my wingtips need a spiffy.

What the? Get out of here you idiot.

Donedy wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Ok, care to explain them then if they are so easy? :)

Love all the noobs teaching us how easy scanning is yet when I ask them basic questions none of them reply. ;)

Sure Master of probes!
Wait... I have time to laugh at you thinking you're superior with your basic understanding of probing. But no time to waste to prove anything to someone apparently not even posting with his main.

Also, saying to people disagreeing with you that they are dumb and noobs doesnt make them be dumb and noobs. Just make you look mad, as you apparently like to qualify all this annoying dumb and noobs.


All I can hear is a noob trying to say something, but still not answering my question. :) Come back when you have figured it out and then I will take you and the other idiot seriously.

Also funny, because I never actually called anyone a dumb noob initially, perhaps a scanning noob which you are, but I never called anyone a dumb noob. It was you and the other dumb noob that started your tirade of insults against me when I suggest I enjoyed the current scanning system. Go back and check the thread. So your last sentence is quite amusing.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#129 - 2013-04-29 22:45:39 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
30 sigs in a system? Oh, I didn't know popping 27 anoms with one scan was part of the arsenal of skills you have. What a joke...

I'll answer your question if you answer a few of mine since you claim to be the pro scanner. How do you ninja probe a ship? What are a couple ways you can find his mission pocket even if he bails? Do missions always spawn in completely random places in a system or do they generally spawn around the same dead space locations?

Now go get your shinebox my wingtips need a spiffy.


Donedy wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Ok, care to explain them then if they are so easy? :)

Love all the noobs teaching us how easy scanning is yet when I ask them basic questions none of them reply. ;)

Sure Master of probes!
Wait... I have time to laugh at you thinking you're superior with your basic understanding of probing. But no time to waste to prove anything to someone apparently not even posting with his main.

Also, saying to people disagreeing with you that they are dumb and noobs doesnt make them be dumb and noobs. Just make you look mad, as you apparently like to qualify all this annoying dumb and noobs.


All I can hear is dumb noobs trying to say something, but still not answering my questions. :) Come back when you have figured it out and then I will take you and the other dumb noob seriously.

Also funny, because I never actually called anyone a dumb noob initially, perhaps a scanning noob which you are, but I never called anyone a dumb noob. It was you and the other dumb noob that started your tirade of insults against me when I suggest I enjoyed the current scanning system. Go back and check the thread. So your last sentence is quite amusing.


No talking while you shine, please...and while you're down there...would ya mind? I promise to warn ya before I bust.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-04-29 22:48:55 UTC
And having skimmed the thread a bit, I read about 'too fast'.

The changes aren't that drastic, and overall, with maxed out skills, you're about where you were before. The addition of scanning modules will change it some, but not a lot.

Personally, I and my corp are already able to scan a safe/resource site in seconds. In combination with the D-scan tool to localize a ship, you then drop your probes in formation and already sized to catch whatever class ship.

8 seconds, that's how long the probes are around for.

Mash that D-scan, me lovelies.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#131 - 2013-04-29 22:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
No talking while you shine, please...and while you're down there...would ya mind? I promise to warn ya before I bust.

Can tell your some grubby little beast locked up in his mums basement. This last post confirms it. lol
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#132 - 2013-04-29 23:00:16 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
No talking while you shine, please...and while you're down there...would ya mind? I promise to warn ya before I bust.

Can tell your some grubby little beast locked up in his mums basement. This last post confirms it. lol



Is that a yes or no on the head?


(and she doesn't lock the door anymore the neighbors got scared watching me catch pigeons to eat with a coat hangar out the jalousie window down here)
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-04-29 23:27:00 UTC
Quote:
CCP Greyscale wrote: The tricky bit is figuring out *what* we want to reward people for, and what we don't. Generally we want to lean towards rewarding people for being better than their peers, rather than being better than the server code or the game content.



Ummm. better than peers, so knowing the EvE hard coded mechanics and how to use them effectively means you are better than the other guy, that's how the game has always game worked, its the old you win the pew pew before you undock, its never just what happens when your fighting! remember we all are dictated to by the server code, those who know it better have the advantage, you cannot change that no matter how hard you try.


Quote:
CCP Greyscale wrote: ...the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead
.

No, No, No, its collaborative mechanics utilised by single players (oh, sry, we forgot your flogging multiple accounts to people for a reason), Multi-Player is the environment it takes place in, wake up ffs

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#134 - 2013-04-29 23:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
I know I will probably be shouted down by the elitist [anal] probers, but I for one welcome changes that reduce the time and effort required to actually probe something [PVE] down.

In my 7 or 8 years playing obviously I've messed about with most forms of probing from surveying several systems moons, to combat probing as fleet scout and even trying to find the odd wormhole, anomaly and gas site etc...

I hate the clunky interface of repeatedly dragging silly spheres hitting a button and waiting and rinse repeating and finding bugger all - then having to watch crappy youtube videos just to try learn how to do it, only to find the youtube video is from the previous probing mechanics... then eventually finding something 'awesome' hours later and then it is time to log off.

All of that to do perhaps the most 'awesome' scanning content but still boring part of this game - PVE.

I have some respect (but more pity) for people who can be bothered to to spend hours and hours every day trying to narrow down that 10/10 plex site with a chance of looting some awesome A-type modules etc. to *GET AHEAD* (a total misnomer) in Eve.

I'm not telling folks how they should play, but rather than having a system in GAME that rewards the person who can walk furthest on broken glass, (this also applies to invention and most Science & Industry too ) surely CCP can come up with something more engaging to both the solo player and group.

I'm all for a much simpler system personally that opens these sites to everyone without us wasting hours and hours of our lives, and presumably like with the old static complexes makes running into people in these sites (for PVP away from gates, belts and stations- OMG!) etc more common.

Just because the walk across broken glass is improved to a lovely shagpile carpet, and competition for walking that 'path' or 'profession' increases, you 'elite' probers farming your 10/10 sites have nothing to fear from me (The fairly average lazy eve player) because at the end of the day, after the novelty of doing a site with help from the new mechanics it is still boring PVE.

Or is that what you are worried about? That more people will start farming your niche income source

I await your flames with a big bag of marshmellows ready for roasting. Cheers.
Mister Tuggles
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#135 - 2013-04-29 23:47:32 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225455&find=unread



All I have to say is what the ****?

Scanning skills took a ton of time to train, and they are getting raped with the nerf bat? Hell, Rangefinding took 27 days to get to lvl 5....
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-04-30 01:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".

you have to be kidding me...
probing is one of the best working aspects of the game and has been for some time.
there is a MASSIVE difference between a good prober, an average prober and a bad prober. the probing UI is not 'obtuse', if functions very well. (with the exception of the 'recall probes' button, seriously, move that sh*t away from the analyze button...)
probing for ships IS interacting with players.

this is more in response to Jame Jarl Retief than your comment Greyscale but even the idea of removing probing is quite possibly the silliest thing ive heard suggested in YEARS.
hell, you may as well just roll back the entire Apocrypha expansion while youre at it...

i would consider myself to be a very good prober (feel free to try me) and personally i think probing should be made harder, not easier.
i say this as someone who enjoys scanning and does so a LOT.

is the probing system perfect? well no, nothing in EVE is ever going to be 'perfect' but it's pretty damn close.
is probing a good game mechanic that adds immeasurable content to the game? absolutely.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Haulie Berry
#137 - 2013-04-30 01:38:32 UTC
Mister Tuggles wrote:


Scanning skills took a ton of time to train, and they are getting raped with the nerf bat?


Yes, except they're not.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#138 - 2013-04-30 01:43:43 UTC
There sure are a lot of obtuse people that like to yell "NO, you're wrong" and then proceed to restate what Greyscale has already said in different words, then smug about it...

For example, about some aspects of PI or manufacturing being a multi-player activity. Doing the preliminary work is usually single player, but the rest of the activity is distinctly multi-player (selling those items competitively).

I don't think there is any danger of losing the ability to play as a solo player, it just may be that certain activities may be expanded to also have more direct benefits if done with friends.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#139 - 2013-04-30 01:45:25 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".

you have to be kidding me...
probing is one of the best working aspects of the game and has been for some time.
there is a MASSIVE difference between a good prober, an average prober and a bad prober. the probing UI is not 'obtuse', if functions very well. (with the exception of the 'recall probes' button, seriously, move that sh*t away from the analyze button...)
probing for ships IS interacting with players.

this is more in response to Jame Jarl Retief than your comment Greyscale but even the idea of removing probing is quite possibly the silliest thing ive heard suggested in YEARS.
hell, you may as well just roll back the entire Apocrypha expansion while youre at it...

i would consider myself to be a very good prober (feel free to try me) and personally i think probing should be made harder, not easier.
i say this as someone who enjoys scanning and does so a LOT.

is the probing system perfect? well no, nothing in EVE is ever going to be 'perfect' but it's pretty damn close.
is probing a good game mechanic that adds immeasurable content to the game? absolutely.

Some aspects of scanning should be dirt simple, even automatic. Other aspects should be much more advanced... and other players should be able to do more to make a probers life difficult if they play intelligently.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
bufnitza calatoare
#140 - 2013-04-30 02:35:34 UTC
I hope the corresponding modules that will be T2 will need lvl 5 skills.

for example

Scan Acquisition Array II - Astrometric Acquisition lvl 5
Scan Pinpointing Array II - Astrometric Pinpointing lvl 5
Scan Range finding Array II - Astrometric Range finding lvl 5

other wise will completely screw scanning.