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If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#121 - 2013-04-29 22:10:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.


By the way, it seems that T2 BPO are also killing the invention market, isn't it ?

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#122 - 2013-04-29 22:15:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.
So you're basically saying that you have decided to ignore facts and figures and that no amount of data or people (or even devs) telling you what's going on in the game will persuade you to abandon something you have made up, and which you will not make any effort to actually see if it's true?

The question posed earlier is quite interesting and I'd like to hear you actually answer it: please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

Quote:
I'm not going to play mathematician for you.
It's not a matter of playing mathematician — it's about checking your facts before you make any claims, and certainly before you dismiss the claims of those who have checked their facts and done the maths.

The only conceivable reason for saying that an imbalance in highsec's favour is laughable is that you simply haven't bothered to look and are just going by baseless assumptions that you refuse to accept as anything but true.


I've lived in null-sec. I've had the moon-goo riches showered on me by benevolent dictators that I one day hope to have the time to play with, again. A couple of my corps handed out Carriers like they were candy to anyone who'd train them.

If CCP's economist wants to show us numbers on industrial wealth extracted per industrialist (with some definition of what constitutes an industrialist) I'd be very interested in seeing those numbers. But if it proves me wrong I'm going to suffer some very serious cognitive dissonance, because it will basically be telling me that what I saw in null-sec didn't really happen.

Sure, I'm open to seeing the math. But if it shows me I'm wrong it will be like telling a lumberjack that there are no such things as trees. I will have some serious cognitive dissonance, because it doesn't merely disagree with my beliefs, but with my actual experience.

The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative. While in fact, I currently hold the (admittedly unproveable) impression that there were/are other corps that have even greater and more concentrated moon-goo wealth than those I served in.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2013-04-29 22:22:27 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.
So you're basically saying that you have decided to ignore facts and figures and that no amount of data or people (or even devs) telling you what's going on in the game will persuade you to abandon something you have made up, and which you will not make any effort to actually see if it's true?

The question posed earlier is quite interesting and I'd like to hear you actually answer it: please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

Quote:
I'm not going to play mathematician for you.
It's not a matter of playing mathematician — it's about checking your facts before you make any claims, and certainly before you dismiss the claims of those who have checked their facts and done the maths.

The only conceivable reason for saying that an imbalance in highsec's favour is laughable is that you simply haven't bothered to look and are just going by baseless assumptions that you refuse to accept as anything but true.


I've lived in null-sec. I've had the moon-goo riches showered on me by benevolent dictators that I one day hope to have the time to play with, again. A couple of my corps handed out Carriers like they were candy to anyone who'd train them.

If CCP's economist wants to show us numbers on industrial wealth extracted per industrialist (with some definition of what constitutes an industrialist) I'd be very interested in seeing those numbers. But if it proves me wrong I'm going to suffer some very serious cognitive dissonance, because it will basically be telling me that what I saw in null-sec didn't really happen.

Sure, I'm open to seeing the math. But if it shows me I'm wrong it will be like telling a lumberjack that there are no such things as trees. I will have some serious cognitive dissonance, because it doesn't merely disagree with my beliefs, but with my actual experience.

The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative. While in fact, I currently hold the (admittedly unproveable) impression that there were/are other corps that have even greater and more concentrated moon-goo wealth than those I served in.



The only thing your example really shows is that nullsec has some really good basic resource extraction (moon goo), and that it is enough to subsidize some niche value adding industry (building and handing out carriers). It in no way demonstrates that nullsec has viable industry on its own.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#124 - 2013-04-29 22:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
I'm rambling, but my point is, that in my opinion the way to weigh the balance is by the overall value of industrial goods extracted PER INDUSTRIALIST.


Great, then you fully support a much greater industrial capacity for null as this will be the most efficient way of balancing the value extracted per "industrialist" by drastically increasing their number. I'm glad we agree.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


What exactly do you mean by "industrial capacity" just so I can see if we're on the same page?

Are we talking slots, for instance?

Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?

Oh wait, null just wants what it wants.

That's fine, since I like null and I covet slots when I'm there just like anyone else does.

That's why I vote null-sec reps onto the CSM.

But I surely won't tell people it's because I think it's a balance issue.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#125 - 2013-04-29 22:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Altrue wrote:
By the way, it seems that T2 BPO are also killing the invention market, isn't it ?
Not really, no.

Liz Laser wrote:
The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative.
No. Another logical explanation is that you're including factors that are not relevant. If you want to talk individual wealth creation, don't include wealth-creation that is not individual; if you want to talk about total industry, then let's talk total industry and actually look at what can and can't be done rather than focus on a just one thing.

The simple fact is the vast majority of industry happens in highsec, and the reason for this is that industry is heavily unbalanced — everything is easier, cheaper, safer, more effortless, to say nothing of risk-free. You are trying to hide this massive and blatantly obvious imbalance behind misapplied (and non-existing) statistics.

Quote:
Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?
Why should they have to give up anything to get something that's still a fraction of what they should have to begin with?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#126 - 2013-04-29 22:31:56 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?


Wait...do you actually believe a majority of nullsec players who have never seen a cent from moongoo wouldnt take this in a heartbeat?

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#127 - 2013-04-29 22:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.
So you're basically saying that you have decided to ignore facts and figures and that no amount of data or people (or even devs) telling you what's going on in the game will persuade you to abandon something you have made up, and which you will not make any effort to actually see if it's true?

The question posed earlier is quite interesting and I'd like to hear you actually answer it: please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

Quote:
I'm not going to play mathematician for you.
It's not a matter of playing mathematician — it's about checking your facts before you make any claims, and certainly before you dismiss the claims of those who have checked their facts and done the maths.

The only conceivable reason for saying that an imbalance in highsec's favour is laughable is that you simply haven't bothered to look and are just going by baseless assumptions that you refuse to accept as anything but true.


I've lived in null-sec. I've had the moon-goo riches showered on me by benevolent dictators that I one day hope to have the time to play with, again. A couple of my corps handed out Carriers like they were candy to anyone who'd train them.

If CCP's economist wants to show us numbers on industrial wealth extracted per industrialist (with some definition of what constitutes an industrialist) I'd be very interested in seeing those numbers. But if it proves me wrong I'm going to suffer some very serious cognitive dissonance, because it will basically be telling me that what I saw in null-sec didn't really happen.

Sure, I'm open to seeing the math. But if it shows me I'm wrong it will be like telling a lumberjack that there are no such things as trees. I will have some serious cognitive dissonance, because it doesn't merely disagree with my beliefs, but with my actual experience.

The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative. While in fact, I currently hold the (admittedly unproveable) impression that there were/are other corps that have even greater and more concentrated moon-goo wealth than those I served in.



The only thing your example really shows is that nullsec has some really good basic resource extraction (moon goo), and that it is enough to subsidize some niche value adding industry (building and handing out carriers). It in no way demonstrates that nullsec has viable industry on its own.



This was in regards to if there is BALANCE and who holds the cards in industrial imbalance. If someone were to argue that every area should be able to be self sufficient because that's more fun, then fine. If they argue that null should get more self sufficiency (or that null should get anything) to create industrial balance that's what seems funny, to me.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-04-29 22:33:54 UTC
Really though, you were a null player and all. It's so obvious from your complete lack of a clue.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#129 - 2013-04-29 22:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?


Wait...do you actually believe a majority of nullsec players who have never seen a cent from moongoo wouldnt take this in a heartbeat?


sort of, but moreso that it comes closer to representing "balance"
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-04-29 22:37:11 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:

This was in regards to if there is BALANCE and who holds the cards in industrial imbalance. If someone were to argue that every area should be able to be self sufficient because that's more fun, then fine. If they argue that null should get more self sufficiency (or that null should get anything) to create industrial balance that's what seems funny, to me.


Why is that funny? Especially when your own experience shows you that the only big nullsec industry had to be subsidized by moon goo. Also keep in mind, most space isn't rolling in high value moons, so this moon goo subsidized industry only works for a few alliances holding a bunch of the best moons.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#131 - 2013-04-29 22:37:48 UTC
And carriers are built in lowsec stations, not nullsec.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#132 - 2013-04-29 22:38:05 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Really though, you were a null player and all. It's so obvious from your complete lack of a clue.


posting from my main, employment history is out there, killboard is out there.

I'm a casual player in high or null, but yes,

I was there man... I was THERE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#133 - 2013-04-29 22:45:08 UTC
By the way, is this a good time to point out that putting in 250k man-hours a month mining ice (in highsec) produces more wealth than all tech moons in the game? Or that keeping those tech moons running requires roughly 250k man-hours a month worth of work?
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#134 - 2013-04-29 22:45:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Altrue wrote:
By the way, it seems that T2 BPO are also killing the invention market, isn't it ?
Not really, no.

Liz Laser wrote:
The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative.
No. Another logical explanation is that you're including factors that are not relevant. If you want to talk individual wealth creation, don't include wealth-creation that is not individual; if you want to talk about total industry, then let's talk total industry and actually look at what can and can't be done rather than focus on a just one thing.

The simple fact is the vast majority of industry happens in highsec, and the reason for this is that industry is heavily unbalanced — everything is easier, cheaper, safer, more effortless, to say nothing of risk-free. You are trying to hide this massive and blatantly obvious imbalance behind misapplied (and non-existing) statistics.

Quote:
Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?
Why should they have to give up anything to get something that's still a fraction of what they should have to begin with?


They DON'T. That's why I voted for null-seccers for CSM.

I want more slots in null-sec because I want them. I'm just not going to tell you it is a balance issue.

I'd rather be the political winner openly enjoying victory, than a fatman commisserating with you (between mouthfuls) about famine.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-04-29 22:46:41 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Also keep in mind, most space isn't rolling in high value moons, so this moon goo subsidized industry only works for a few alliances holding a bunch of the best moons.


I don't know. I hear that CCP Soundwave hates passive income.

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#136 - 2013-04-29 22:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Tippia wrote:
By the way, is this a good time to point out that putting in 250k man-hours a month mining ice (in highsec) produces more wealth than all tech moons in the game? Or that keeping those tech moons running requires roughly 250k man-hours a month worth of work?


The part I bolded is rather fascinating. Where does it come from?


Fixed the quote. ISD Ezwal.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2013-04-29 22:50:13 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
I want more slots in null-sec because I want them. I'm just not going to tell you it is a balance issue.
That's silly. Why are you ignoring a fact that provides an excellent reason why it should happen?

What's wrong with calling a balance issue a balance issue — especially when it's such a well-known and obvious one — and then ask that it be balanced properly?
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#138 - 2013-04-29 22:53:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
I want more slots in null-sec because I want them. I'm just not going to tell you it is a balance issue.
That's silly. Why are you ignoring a fact that provides an excellent reason why it should happen?

What's wrong with calling a balance issue a balance issue — especially when it's such a well-known and obvious one — and then ask that it be balanced properly?


I see it as something I'd like. Just like I'd like more research slots when I'm in high-sec.

I can't make the argument either is a balance issue. Maybe you can.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2013-04-29 22:56:33 UTC
He has. So have several other people. Many, many times.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-04-29 22:58:52 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Tippia wrote:
By the way, is this a good time to point out that putting in 250k man-hours a month mining ice (in highsec) produces more wealth than all tech moons in the game? [b]Or that keeping those tech moons running requires roughly 250k man-hours a month worth of work?


The part I bolded is rather fascinating. Where does it come from?


Should it matter? Either the tech moons are profitable or not. If they aren't then somone should fire the alliance's accountant.

I mean think of it like this.... If a POS operation takes 100 million to operate for every 110 million it makes which leaves you 10 million profit. Sure that is only 10% profit, but if it's technically throwing away money if you don't perform the POS operations.

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