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If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#101 - 2013-04-29 21:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Having it, or not having it in my hangar doesn't change the fact that its existence has tilted the industrial balance of the game heavily towards null-sec.


Please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

If you're suggesting that it is the "total value extracted from a security space", then you are talking about something completely different than what advocates for an industrial balancing of nullsec are.




If Malcanis wants to suggest he was merely talking about a sliver of the industrial picture when he brought up balance, that would be eminently fair.

But if anyone (you, Malc, or others) is willing to say that industrial balance as a whole is imbalanced in favor of high-sec, not only will I be laughing heartily, but I'll soon know which of my co-workers read the forums based on their laughter.

late edit, I meant high-sec, not null-sec
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#102 - 2013-04-29 21:22:00 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable


Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".


if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.


But if it is NEEDED, the tears factor alone won't be enough to deny it from enemies? :-)

I dunno, you might be right. Null can get real static, sometimes. Until it isn't.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-04-29 21:23:46 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
If Malcanis wants to suggest he was merely talking about a sliver of the industrial picture when he brought up balance, that would be eminently fair.

But if anyone (you, Malc, or others) is willing to say that industrial balance as a whole is imbalanced in favor of null-sec, not only will I be laughing heartily, but I'll soon know which of my co-workers read the forums based on their laughter.


You didn't answer the question. You're making up an argument, and then "laughing heartily" at your own invented argument.

How is the incentive to manufacture in a space tied to the value of materials extracted in that space? How are you measuring each of them? How are you comparing the relative values to decide how much extraction value is worth how much properly-incentivized industrial capacity?


Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Danni stark
#104 - 2013-04-29 21:25:47 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable


Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".


if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.


But if it is NEEDED, the tears factor alone won't be enough to deny it from enemies? :-)

I dunno, you might be right. Null can get real static, sometimes. Until it isn't.



i'd be surprised if any alliances could field enough miners to keep a decent proportion of their ice sites on a respawn timer. null sec isn't known for it's abundance of miners.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#105 - 2013-04-29 21:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If Malcanis wants to suggest he was merely talking about a sliver of the industrial picture when he brought up balance, that would be eminently fair.

But if anyone (you, Malc, or others) is willing to say that industrial balance as a whole is imbalanced in favor of null-sec, not only will I be laughing heartily, but I'll soon know which of my co-workers read the forums based on their laughter.


You didn't answer the question. You're making up an argument, and then "laughing heartily" at your own invented argument.

How is the incentive to manufacture in a space tied to the value of materials extracted in that space? How are you measuring each of them? How are you comparing the relative values to decide how much extraction value is worth how much properly-incentivized industrial capacity?




I'm not going to play mathematician for you.

Suffice it to say if null-seccers didn't highly prize those moon-goo riches we could simply sortie out of high-sec into null-sec to play our PvP reindeer games. The fact that null-seccers sit on the moon-goo means it has succeeded as becoming the "something worth fighting for" CCP strives for. If it were eye candy, or something else without industrial use you'd have a point. But it is an industrial good.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#106 - 2013-04-29 21:33:39 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
i'd be surprised if any alliances could field enough miners to keep a decent proportion of their ice sites on a respawn timer. null sec isn't known for it's abundance of miners.


Quit making sense. Big smile
Danni stark
#107 - 2013-04-29 21:35:40 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
i'd be surprised if any alliances could field enough miners to keep a decent proportion of their ice sites on a respawn timer. null sec isn't known for it's abundance of miners.


Quit making sense. Big smile


yeah, sorry.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#108 - 2013-04-29 21:38:38 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
How is the incentive to manufacture in a space tied to the value of materials extracted in that space? How are you measuring each of them? How are you comparing the relative values to decide how much extraction value is worth how much properly-incentivized industrial capacity?


I'm not going to play mathematician for you.

Suffice it to say if null-seccers didn't highly prize those moon-goo riches they could simply sortie out of high-sec into null-sec to play our PvP reindeer games. The fact that null-seccers sit on the moon-goo means it has succeeded as becoming the "something worth fighting for" CCP strives for. If it were eye candy, or something else without industrial use you'd have a point. But it is an industrial good.


Right, it is a good used in industry. So what's the rate of exchange on industrial capacity and industrial goods extracted? All of this, of course, dependent on your completely unsubstantiated assertion that a greater overall value of industrial goods are extracted in nullsec than hisec.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-04-29 21:40:31 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable


Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".


if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.


You may be reading GARPA right, but you are missing the point.

Ice Anoms will bring even small groups of miners, which will bring gank fleets, which will bring defense fleets, which will actually cause small scale PVP to be a thing again. It's been called the "Nullsec Ecosystem," and it was killed because entitled bot miners browbeat CCP into making Highsec the only place to do all but the most specialized of industrial crap for the past few years.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-04-29 21:42:56 UTC
Almost makes you wonder how unbloated things would seem if it wasn't so easy to plex so many separate accounts.

False positives and what not for slot allotment and actual demand.

With the huuuge amount of "fake" accounts, there has got to be a nice sized amount of double dipping going on.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Danni stark
#111 - 2013-04-29 21:45:26 UTC
Xython wrote:
You may be reading GARPA right, but you are missing the point.

Ice Anoms will bring even small groups of miners, which will bring gank fleets, which will bring defense fleets, which will actually cause small scale PVP to be a thing again. It's been called the "Nullsec Ecosystem," and it was killed because entitled bot miners browbeat CCP into making Highsec the only place to do all but the most specialized of industrial crap for the past few years.


i have no doubt that will happen. however, there's a difference between hotdropping miners and fighting for a resource.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-04-29 21:46:09 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Almost makes you wonder how unbloated things would seem if it wasn't so easy to plex so many separate accounts.

False positives and what not for slot allotment and actual demand.

With the huuuge amount of "fake" accounts, there has got to be a nice sized amount of double dipping going on.


Oh yes, I would pay good money to see CCP do a check to show just how many "highsec" players are Nullsec alts. They could easily do so via comparing IPs and via comparing email addresses. That would probably change the dynamics of the discussion about highsec vs nullsec, I would think.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2013-04-29 21:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Liz Laser wrote:
I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.
So you're basically saying that you have decided to ignore facts and figures and that no amount of data or people (or even devs) telling you what's going on in the game will persuade you to abandon something you have made up, and which you will not make any effort to actually see if it's true?

The question posed earlier is quite interesting and I'd like to hear you actually answer it: please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

Quote:
I'm not going to play mathematician for you.
It's not a matter of playing mathematician — it's about checking your facts before you make any claims, and certainly before you dismiss the claims of those who have checked their facts and done the maths.

The only conceivable reason for saying that an imbalance in highsec's favour is laughable is that you simply haven't bothered to look and are just going by baseless assumptions that you refuse to accept as anything but true.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-04-29 21:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Danni stark wrote:
Xython wrote:
You may be reading GARPA right, but you are missing the point.

Ice Anoms will bring even small groups of miners, which will bring gank fleets, which will bring defense fleets, which will actually cause small scale PVP to be a thing again. It's been called the "Nullsec Ecosystem," and it was killed because entitled bot miners browbeat CCP into making Highsec the only place to do all but the most specialized of industrial crap for the past few years.


i have no doubt that will happen. however, there's a difference between hotdropping miners and fighting for a resource.


Eeeh, not really. I don't see there ever being a day when say, Goonswarm decides to push someone else out of an area because there's good tradeskill materials in said area.

That would require there be an entire re-balancing basically of the entire game, and frankly I don't think CCP has it in them.

*Snip* Please refrain from assuming what CCP can or cannot do. ISD Ezwal
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-04-29 21:52:19 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup, pretty much this. It used to be that you could be strong but poor (PvP alliance) or weak but rich (industrial alliance), because making lots of money and being militarily strong required fundamentally different internal cultures/structures, and every alliance had to decide where it wanted to fall on that spectrum. With the advent of supermoons, being strong and being rich fed into each other, and suddenly there was no upside to being an industrial alliance.

(This is my go-to example for unintended consequences in emergent design.)

I really can't begin to describe how wrong this is. What you are describing is alliances being rich because they owned t2 bpos, which is not the same as the alliance being rich because it is an industrial alliance. It means that alliances were rich because they were, essentially, lucky.

It was never possible to take a t2 bpo away from an industrial alliance or make it stop spigoting money for them (because they could build it in highsec). No alliance could "decide to be" an industrial alliance because they couldn't decide to have a t2 bpo (unless, of course, they were BoB). "Industrial alliances" did not earn money off the backs of their industrial members: they earned money by having a t2 bpo and having one or two people run it. It didn't mean people needed to mine, it didn't mean people needed to build, it just meant "this alliance has lots of money because it has a t2 bpo".

An alliance having a t2 money spigot didn't mean it was weak or strong; it was entirely irrelevant (hence Bob, the prototypical elitePvP alliance also being stupid wealthy).

This is really, really wrong on a fundamental level and I really hope this isn't the basis of game design post-oddessy. It's just such a botched view of what an industrial alliance even is and what eve's history is.


I just want to bring this back to the forefront of the discussion, because when I read CCP Greyscale's words I spit soda all over my monitor. Holy cripes, :ccp:.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#116 - 2013-04-29 21:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
How is the incentive to manufacture in a space tied to the value of materials extracted in that space? How are you measuring each of them? How are you comparing the relative values to decide how much extraction value is worth how much properly-incentivized industrial capacity?


I'm not going to play mathematician for you.

Suffice it to say if null-seccers didn't highly prize those moon-goo riches they could simply sortie out of high-sec into null-sec to play our PvP reindeer games. The fact that null-seccers sit on the moon-goo means it has succeeded as becoming the "something worth fighting for" CCP strives for. If it were eye candy, or something else without industrial use you'd have a point. But it is an industrial good.


Right, it is a good used in industry. So what's the rate of exchange on industrial capacity and industrial goods extracted? All of this, of course, dependent on your completely unsubstantiated assertion that a greater overall value of industrial goods are extracted in nullsec than hisec.



If you're going to put words in my mouth, my actual unsubstantiated assertion is that the overall value of industrial goods extracted in null sec PER INDUSTRIALIST is vastly wildly in null-sec's favor, even when you add in industrialists like me who were doing it wrong.

That there are more people who aren't PvPers is the case in almost all MMOs, even where the death penalties are minimal and the economy isn't a factor.

*IF* high-sec extracts more total value, it is only because most players don't enjoy PvP, not because high-sec is such a great place for industry. If you made mining ships free and clone replacement after mining ship destruction free and even paid players to die, I still think you'd find most players aren't going to come out to and die for our enjoyment.

I'm rambling, but my point is, that in my opinion the way to weigh the balance is by the overall value of industrial goods extracted PER INDUSTRIALIST.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#117 - 2013-04-29 22:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Liz Laser wrote:
*IF* high-sec extracts more total value, it is only because most players don't enjoy PvP
…or because they can do it without losing as much value in the process, or because there's much less work overhead, or because there's no waiting around for available slots and materials, or because there are no interruptions.

Oh wait. It's pretty much for all those other reasons, which explains why highsec is such a great place for industry.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#118 - 2013-04-29 22:02:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lallante wrote:


Personally, I'd also remove jump drives from jump freighters or at the very least ban them from empire. **** those things tbh.


Wouldn't it make more sense to equalise opportunity between 0.0 and hi-sec, so that JFing everything up from hi-sec becomes increasingly moot? Shouldn't 0.0 regions be able to easily trade with each other? Why should 0.0 have its throat cut before this is achieved?

Seriously, you're trying to cure a broken leg by banning bandages and plaster.



No because unfortunately, as the existence of Jita shows, the possibility of "equal" local opportunity is massively outweighed by the convenience of a one-stop-shop. Its currently just as easy and in some ways cheaper to run your empire industry from any of the empire regions other than Jita/Forge and yet everyone still goes there. Equal status is not enough alone to disincentivise a single-pole for trade - there need to be active incentives to locality.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#119 - 2013-04-29 22:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Liz Laser wrote:
I'm rambling, but my point is, that in my opinion the way to weigh the balance is by the overall value of industrial goods extracted PER INDUSTRIALIST.


Great, then you fully support a much greater industrial capacity for null as this will be the most efficient way of balancing the value extracted per "industrialist" by drastically increasing their number. I'm glad we agree.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#120 - 2013-04-29 22:08:08 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
eh you probably won't bother so here: it is highly unlikely that 0.0 actually becomes self-sufficient for lowends (and ccp is explicit they do not want it to be) so if it becomes self-sufficient it will be nerfed

if 0.0 is self-sufficient a mineral compression nerf is entirely unneeded and pointless, if a mineral compression nerf is doing anything, then 0.0 is not self-sufficient and you are incentivizing importing finished products

What you are missing is that in Eve, self sufficiency is best defined as when people are both able and more importantly willing to produce locally using locally obtained resources. In the strictest sense pretty much everywhere is capable of being self sufficient right now, but people dont produce locally because its less hassle to go to Jita amd JF back. This is why a compression nerf could actually MAKE areas self-sufficient - if importing from Jita is more hassle than producing locally then people will do the latter as long as it isnt too much worse than it was before.