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If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#81 - 2013-04-29 20:18:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
At the moment, hi-sec gets 3 massive "cost" advantages

1) A huge amount of free invulnerable, inalienable slots, often in the same station as you can easily get perfect refines, loads of office slots, research slots etc., etc.

2) CONCORD protection 24/7 at zero cost, which hugely reduces the overhead of moving finished products and materials.

3) A massive local supply of low-end minerals; it's much cheaper, logistically speaking, to move the high ends to where the low ends are than vice versa.

Now the Odessey ore changes will go some way to redressing cost 3, but hi-sec cost advantages 1 & 2 are left largely intact.

Until such time as either 0.0 stations get an efficiency advantage equivalent to those cost advantages, or else hi-sec stations charge "realistic" amounts for the use of their slots, very little industry will take place in 0.0; ammo, cap boosters, cyno frigates, etc.


I look forward to hearing a consensus opinion from CSM8 about what can and should be done to create a level playing field for all industrialists. Will this opinion include measures such as drastically reducing the quantity of NPC manufacturing slots while increasing their cost: thus maintaining the possibility of bootstrapping EVE economy should the game ever be reset for any reason, while putting the pressure on industrialists to run their own POSes for maximal profit. Will this opinion include reworking all refineries (NPC station, Outpost and POS) to be activity lines taxable by installation and hourly charges?

Perhaps I just don't know what I am talking about. Even then, I would like to hear CSM8 opine about how much I should just shut up :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#82 - 2013-04-29 20:19:13 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

Who in their right mind is going to do manufacture as an isk maker in null.


Yes, that's kind of the point. One might almost say that it's a good indicator that the situation is unbalanced.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#83 - 2013-04-29 20:25:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

Who in their right mind is going to do manufacture as an isk maker in null.


Yes, that's kind of the point. One might almost say that it's a good indicator that the situation is unbalanced.


The problem with a game full of competitive minmaxers is that everything has to be balanced to five nines otherwise something will be overpowered.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ghazu
#84 - 2013-04-29 20:27:25 UTC
oh hey a NRDS plea from some scrub highseccer,
go to Providence then.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#85 - 2013-04-29 20:31:15 UTC
Well if you want to make null competative and support alliances from the bottom up then 11 slot ceiling per char should be lifted when using slots in null. Maybe then a corp/alliance could actually support itself from industry without 90 percent of members being alts. Never made sense anyway, when a business grows it gets a bigger factory, not cloning yourself to start all over again.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-04-29 20:31:16 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Agnar Volta wrote:
it's too dangerous


I say nonsense. My first time around eve about 3 years ago I was ice mining in providence with a mackinaw on my first account and was never really in danger with the intel you had about those that moved in and out of your area.


I'm not disagreeing with your past experience, but how will that translate to post-odyssey when ice might actually be valuable and rare enough to be controllable, and experienced ice monopolists are also very experienced in 23/7 cloaky camping to suppress people's ability to grind in null-sec?


overwhelming firepower? you protect your sov/resources/members/friends etc
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#87 - 2013-04-29 20:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Malcanis wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

Who in their right mind is going to do manufacture as an isk maker in null.


Yes, that's kind of the point. One might almost say that it's a good indicator that the situation is unbalanced.


as long as null-sec has the high-end passive income moon-goo, null-sec is never allowed to discuss industrial "balance". Big smile

I'm only half kidding, and seriously don't mean it quite as obnoxiously as it sounds, but the fact that I couldn't make industrialism work without jump drives...

was a very small trade-off...

for all the free ships showered on me by my moon-goo rich corps and alliances.

Buffing null-sec industrialism may make it more convenient to be a null-seccer (including for the PvPers who don't do industry). It might even make for more good fights (which would be really really cool).

But passive income moon-goo rich null-seccers talking about industrial balance?

That's like watching a fatman talking (with his mouth full) about famine.

Serisously, someone please post that high-sec's semi-afk play ought not be rewarded while that same poster is flying in a titan bought with passive income moon-goo. Because that would truly make my day, as well as being the most laughably quotable thing ever written on the forums.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-04-29 20:36:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The problem with a game full of competitive minmaxers is that everything has to be balanced to five nines otherwise something will be overpowered.

Five decimal places? My god, how can you stand such waste?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Danni stark
#89 - 2013-04-29 20:49:04 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Agnar Volta wrote:
it's too dangerous


I say nonsense. My first time around eve about 3 years ago I was ice mining in providence with a mackinaw on my first account and was never really in danger with the intel you had about those that moved in and out of your area.


I'm not disagreeing with your past experience, but how will that translate to post-odyssey when ice might actually be valuable and rare enough to be controllable, and experienced ice monopolists are also very experienced in 23/7 cloaky camping to suppress people's ability to grind in null-sec?


overwhelming firepower? you protect your sov/resources/members/friends etc


covetors, and cloaked cyno ship.

solution to afk cloakers.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-04-29 20:56:48 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
But passive income moon-goo rich null-seccers talking about industrial balance?


One has nothing to do with the other.

Also, if moongoo is so "passive", how come you don't have any?

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#91 - 2013-04-29 20:59:41 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Also, if moongoo is so "passive", how come you don't have any?


If datacores are so passive, why doesn't everyone collect them?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-04-29 21:01:16 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
If datacores are so passive, why doesn't everyone collect them?


Because it wasn't worth their time to arrange.

Are you saying a tech moon isn't worth your time to drop a pos on? That's all that's holding you back?

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#93 - 2013-04-29 21:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Danni stark wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Agnar Volta wrote:
it's too dangerous


I say nonsense. My first time around eve about 3 years ago I was ice mining in providence with a mackinaw on my first account and was never really in danger with the intel you had about those that moved in and out of your area.


I'm not disagreeing with your past experience, but how will that translate to post-odyssey when ice might actually be valuable and rare enough to be controllable, and experienced ice monopolists are also very experienced in 23/7 cloaky camping to suppress people's ability to grind in null-sec?



overwhelming firepower? you protect your sov/resources/members/friends etc

covetors, and cloaked cyno ship.

solution to afk cloakers.


If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.
Danni stark
#94 - 2013-04-29 21:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Danni stark
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#95 - 2013-04-29 21:07:07 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
If datacores are so passive, why doesn't everyone collect them?


Because it wasn't worth their time to arrange.

Are you saying a tech moon isn't worth your time to drop a pos on? That's all that's holding you back?


Getting yourself into the position of having the POS on the moon is irrelevant, since CCP Soundwave doesn't believe rep grinding and skill training should figure in effort/reward figures for datacores. Datacores are entirely passive, they just magically appear in Jita 4-4 with no effort, didn't you know?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#96 - 2013-04-29 21:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Varius Xeral wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
But passive income moon-goo rich null-seccers talking about industrial balance?


One has nothing to do with the other.

Also, if moongoo is so "passive", how come you don't have any?


There are lots of things I don't have in eve. I'm a casual player.

But there have been times that I have richly enjoyed the bountiful benefits of moon-goo riches showered upon me by those who had it.

Having it, or not having it in my hangar doesn't change the fact that its existence has tilted the industrial balance of the game heavily towards null-sec.

I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#97 - 2013-04-29 21:12:48 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable


Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-04-29 21:14:09 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Having it, or not having it in my hangar doesn't change the fact that its existence has tilted the industrial balance of the game heavily towards null-sec.


Please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

If you're suggesting that it is the "total value extracted from a security space", then you are talking about something completely different than what advocates for an industrial balancing of nullsec are.


Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#99 - 2013-04-29 21:15:27 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Getting yourself into the position of having the POS on the moon is irrelevant, since CCP Soundwave doesn't believe rep grinding and skill training should figure in effort/reward figures for datacores. Datacores are entirely passive, they just magically appear in Jita 4-4 with no effort, didn't you know?


Keep whacking those strawmen, champ.

Next time just spare the rest of us the show.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Danni stark
#100 - 2013-04-29 21:16:13 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.


almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable


Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".


if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.