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Science based PoS question (research/copy/invention)

Author
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-31 22:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alisarina
Hello all.

I have been toying with the idea of setting up a research PoS in high sec and am wondering if I could get some advice.

With it going to be a research based PoS I was thinking a Caldari tower but then some people I know have told me to use a Gal tower instead which confused me a tad. So my question is this: Should I use a Caldari tower (medium I guess) over other towers for the use I have, or is there a better basic tower to use for my purpose?

Another question is this: I have 2 characters that can do research, with that in mind, is a medium tower going to allow enough slots to be used by them? I havn't played around with a PoS Planner as of yet and am going to when I get in from work tonight, but just wanting to get the general populations feelings on this. Also if I want to make it a tough nut to crack and make it not worth the time to war dec on my 2 man corp, would a dickstar be better or a deathstar type approch be best to protect my investment?

Thanks for your time.
Leonard Dukes
Arbitrage Holdings Corporation
#2 - 2011-10-31 22:50:32 UTC
Alisarina wrote:
Should I use a Caldari tower (medium I guess) over other towers for the use I have, or is there a better basic tower to use for my purpose?


Each of the 4 main Factions (Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar, Amarr) have Control Towers with different ratios of CPU:Powergrid. Mobile Lab Arrays consume more CPU than most other Arrays (500-600 versus 150-250) whereas Manufacturing Arrays tend to hog more Powergrid (relative to how much CPU they require). If you're setting up a POS primarily for research, then Caldari is almost certainly the way to go.

Also worth considering is each main Faction's pirate variant - in this case, Guristas or Dread Guristas towers. They offer the same fittings, but have a few advantages such as shorter anchoring times and (most importantly) reduced fuel consumption. Compared to a Caldari tower, a Guristas tower (of equal size) consumes roughly 15% fewer Ice Products (isotopes, heavy water, liquid ozone) and a Dread Guristas, roughly 25% less. As Ice Products can easily account for half of your monthly fuel costs, this bonus is worth looking at (but takes some time to offset the purchase price of the Tower).

Alisarina wrote:
Another question is this: I have 2 characters that can do research, with that in mind, is a medium tower going to allow enough slots to be used by them?


There are a few different Lab configurations you can have, depending on your particular research needs. Basic Mobile Labs have more ME/PE slots than Advanced Labs, but only 1 copy slot. Advanced Labs have 3 copy slots (and a better copy job time multiplier) but fewer of the rest. Hyasyoda Mobile Labs (Caldari Epic Arc reward) are basically Basic Mobile Labs with extra slots, but zero copy slots.

That being said, you can easily fit 4 Basic Mobile Labs, a Hyasyoda Mobile Lab, and an Advanced Mobile Lab and still have a bit of fitting for some basic Manufacturing Arrays (Equipment, Drones, Components) if you so desire. That would give you a total of 33 lab slots, divided up among the different job types. In any case, I'm sure you can find an amicable configuration to keep your 2 characters fully occupied with the research job of your choice, with the possible exception of Copying.


Alisarina wrote:
Also if I want to make it a tough nut to crack and make it not worth the time to war dec on my 2 man corp, would a dickstar be better or a deathstar type approch be best to protect my investment?


If you anchor in Hi-Sec and don't go making unnecessary enemies, you can probably get by with anchoring a metric buttload of ECM arrays and Shield Hardeners, supplemented with some Artillery Batteries and Warp Scramble Batteries. Your goal should be to make the POS appear to be as dull a target as humanly possible - something that would take a small gang hours of AFK pew-pew to put a dent in.

If, on the other hand, someone is intent on dropping your Tower, your best bet is a good unanchor strategy.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#3 - 2011-10-31 23:30:25 UTC
The faction towers may save on fuel, but:

- They cost a lot more then regular towers.
- You can't get them from NPCs or drops any more (so they're becoming less available).
- Even with increased POS fuel costs, it takes 2 years to pay back based on fuel costs.

For a POS fitter, try out:
http://www.vexar.de/pos_fitter/

Personally, I just use a spreadsheet which lets me setup a few different alternate scenarios to see whether they fit within the PG/CPU of the tower.

You'll want to anchor defensive modules on a medium/large tower - unless your plan is to simply cancel all jobs and take everything down if wardec'd in hi-sec. Even if you can put those defensive modules online all the time, you save on the anchoring time if you ever have to put them to use.

Medium tower (non-faction) is going to run you about 250M in tower + defensive modules to setup, plus 50-60M for each lab (5-6 labs for a medium). A large tower will run closer to 500M for the tower + defensive modules. The large tower can hold between 9-12 labs, depending on what mix of regular / advanced labs that you use.

You'll also need to consider fuel costs - which are running about 220M/mo for a medium and 380M/mo for a large. That number is up about 20-30% from the prior month and has gone as much as 30% above that quoted price. If you maintain a stockpile of 30-60 days, then you can buy when it is cheaper and ride out small price spikes.
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-11-01 07:12:55 UTC
I was looking at the faction Towers and was weighing the pro's and cons of getting hold of one. I would of thought it would of just made me more of an inviting target to greifers but from what has been said it seems they would make it more of a bad thing to attack due to teh amount of time required to bring it down. It does however present me with an issue of cost for the initial outlay, but would it be worth it for a medium tower?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#5 - 2011-11-01 13:10:15 UTC
Faction towers can't mount that much more defense/offense then a regular variant of the tower. They make a lot of sense in w-space where the fuel savings results in easier logistics, but I don't think they make a lot of sense in hi-sec unless you have more then half a dozen towers.

Unless you are ready to unanchor everything when wardec'd, you should consider the tower and defensive modules "lost" the moment that you anchor them.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-01 14:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
if you are new to running a POS and all the stuff that goes with it, i advice you to do what i did and get yourself a caldari small POS.

it has enough CPU to anchor 3 labs in whatever combo you want.

a small caldari POS is a great starter for a person getting to grips with research and invention. All you need to worry about is finding a system/station with spare/free manufacturing slots and a cheap office rent.

Just a tip, because the tower is so cheap, if you get wardecced, you can just unanchor the labs inside the shields and leave the POS as a throwaway. (As a reference, i did lose mine to some friends as a prank, and its isk value was only £1.50, not much really)

Just remember to put stront in the POS to give you some leeway if you get war decced and cant evacuate the labs in time.

edit to add link to best browser based POS planner
http://eve.1019.net/pos/

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

VaMei
Meafi Corp
#7 - 2011-11-01 14:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
you should consider the tower and defensive modules "lost" the moment that you anchor them.


This.

Old school Eve rule of thumb: Everything you take into space is lost the moment you undock. Anything else is a good day.

@OP You can try to beef up your POS by adding defensive modules, but you're putting more isk on the line by doing so. Anyone that cares to look will know they're looking at a 2 man corp that can't mount a serious defense. Without a defending fleet, POS bowling is only a matter of determination and planning around whatever defenses you do have.

I've had my POS attacked twice, both times it was defended, but both times I was offline while the attack was happening.
The 1st time, it was a small corp against my lightly defended small POS. It managed to chase them off without losses.
The 2nd time was an unrelated larger corp against my well defended medium POS. They made short work of it and came back the next day to claim their prize.

You place your bets and you take your chances.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-01 15:18:31 UTC
tbh...

anyone attacking your POS should know what they are doing; unless they mess up, more than likely the POS will die

Anchoring more defensive modules will just prolong the death and make it a more expensive affair for you the POS owner. But by all means, if YOU think you can defend be my guest.

http://tk.konstipation.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=950

check the 'related kills' on that KB link (also be careful the browser doesnt mess with the '&' when you follow the link)

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Smodab Ongalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-01 15:43:28 UTC
You can do research remotely with your BPOs safely in a station and not in the mobile array. I highly suggest you use google to figure out how to do this.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-11-01 15:48:59 UTC
Smodab Ongalot wrote:
You can do research remotely with your BPOs safely in a station and not in the mobile array. I highly suggest you use google to figure out how to do this.


Anyone researching with BPO's actually at the POS is a fool

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#11 - 2011-11-01 15:51:32 UTC
POS defenses will never keep the tower alive - they can delay the inevitable. Especially a mix of guns & ECCM (you need guns to deal with the "orca full of shuttles" tactic) in hi-sec.

They do serve as a good deterrent against opportunistic attackers who will just look for a less defended POS to go after.

(And defensive modules are cheap. Anchoring 100-120 defensive modules around a large tower costs about 400M. Cheap insurance compared to having to re-anchor the tower if standings were an issue when setting it up in the first place. Or if you think someone will attempt to take your moon's position after your tower is destroyed.)
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#12 - 2011-11-01 17:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Ayeipsia
POS defense... Within the 24 hours u r war decced, take the pos down.

This can be accomplished if you go small. A small caldari tower can support 2 advanced mobile labs, 1 mobile lab, and 1 corp hanger. You can fuel this with one ice miner mining about 8 hours a week or less and with one character with pi skills for 6 planets and the best command center upgrade skill.

Alternatively, I think you could mount 2 mobile labs, one advanced, one corp hanger.

Slot wise, with the first option:

7 me slots
3 te slots
7 copy
9 invention

2nd option:
8 me
6 te
5 copy
10 invention

That should be enough for most u indy work. Just login each day to watch for war decs.

Additionallt, to avoid standing issues, simply don't have standings with that faction on any character in the corp. For example, if your characters have no gallante standings, pay for a corp with standings high enough to anchor in gallante space. Your characters won't change the standing, allowing you to always anchor there.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#13 - 2011-11-01 17:43:38 UTC
If you put up a large POS tower and your corp is in an alliance you don't even have to defend it. Just put shield hardeners on it and stront it up. If someone shoots the tower just drop it from alliance and take it down. If you want to go help fight your war just put your corp back in alliance just reapply once the tower is down.

The only time you will ever lose a highsec POS is if you try and defend it. Also if someone declares war on you and you want to keep your tower up don't sit in the system where you tower is and certainly don't sit inside the bubble like a total idiot.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2011-11-01 20:00:36 UTC
Leonard Dukes wrote:
If, on the other hand, someone is intent on dropping your Tower, your best bet is a good unanchor strategy.
Don't leave anything anchored during a wardec you cannot afford to lose, or replace.

Oh, and a bunch of people trained as POS gunners doesn't hurt.
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-11-01 23:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alisarina
Thank you very much for the advice on this. I am now getting together the required bits to set up my first PoS and set up an alt to do PI to make some of the fuels.

Now I have 1 final question that's vaguely related to this.

I am wanting to set up in Caldari space. Now chances are I'm going to buy a corp that has 7.02+ Caldari State standings. The character that will be the CEO of this corp, and possibly the only character in it, has no standings with any faction besides 0.06 with Amarr Constructions (a corp) and NO faction standings at all.

My question is, due to having no standings with any of the factions, the Corp I buy will not loose standings to an average of the corp member/s (this case just my science alt with no standings at all) or will it slowly drop down to zero also? I have read that it will settle on the average but never read anything about how it settles if there is no average to settle to.

Thanks again and hope to get an answer to this, I'm looking forward to trying this out.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, I would be doing R&D agents with the CEO character so would eventually get faction standings which is a bummer, but the question still remains as it intrigues me.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#16 - 2011-11-02 00:07:20 UTC
The calculation for the corp's faction standing is done every day at downtime and is calculated as:

- The average of every player who has been in the corporation for at least 7 downtimes (6?).
- Has a non-NULL standing with any corp/faction (i.e. there is an entry in the character's standings information).
- Connections skills / diplomacy skills do not get taken into account (only raw standings).

When you buy a corp with high standings and put in a CEO who has NULL standings, AFAIK the standings will never re-calculate.

It used to be that the standings would slowly level out, but now it simply does a faster calculation where it looks at everyone who has standings as of the downtime and just averages all the members who qualify.

Fred 8.0 (15 days in corp)
Sue NULL (30 days in corp)
Jim 4.0 (8 days in corp)
Alice 2.0 (2 days in corp)

Average is 6.00 (only Jim and Fred count). Five days from now, Alice's standings will count, so the average will drop to 4.67.
BornToDieAnotherDay
Tarazed Technology
#17 - 2011-11-02 00:33:45 UTC
Everything ^ said, but also if you anchor the POS while you have the standings, then even if your corp standings drop you will still be able to use the POS, including I believe anchoring modules. However if you want/have to pull it down for whatever reason, you will not be able to put it back up again.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#18 - 2011-11-02 12:14:11 UTC
Alisarina wrote:
Thank you very much for the advice on this. I am now getting together the required bits to set up my first PoS and set up an alt to do PI to make some of the fuels.

Now I have 1 final question that's vaguely related to this.

I am wanting to set up in Caldari space. Now chances are I'm going to buy a corp that has 7.02+ Caldari State standings. The character that will be the CEO of this corp, and possibly the only character in it, has no standings with any faction besides 0.06 with Amarr Constructions (a corp) and NO faction standings at all.

My question is, due to having no standings with any of the factions, the Corp I buy will not loose standings to an average of the corp member/s (this case just my science alt with no standings at all) or will it slowly drop down to zero also? I have read that it will settle on the average but never read anything about how it settles if there is no average to settle to.

Thanks again and hope to get an answer to this, I'm looking forward to trying this out.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, I would be doing R&D agents with the CEO character so would eventually get faction standings which is a bummer, but the question still remains as it intrigues me.


Two things:

One, having nul standings (nothing displayed) does not get averaged in. So if you buy a caldari corp and since you have no standings with caldari state, the standings for your corp will not change.

Secondly, skip story line missions. You can skip them once every 4 hours just like any other mission. I have an alt with enough Lai dai standings to use level 3 agents. I skipped all his story line missions without running afoul of that 4 hour limit. He has no cal state standings, so no impact on his corp standings with cal state.