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Warfare & Tactics

 
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DO SOMETHING CCP, STOP BEING A SCARED B*TCH

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ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#161 - 2013-04-29 16:17:32 UTC
If you dont like doing the thing fw entails why the fk are you in fw. You say you did it once but got bored you mean u got some isk got fat and lazy and couldnt be arsed to do it again when minnies fought bk (why bother your rich now neway).

Ok so u want sov war for real then I suggest all plexes be removed and we have to do it like null seccers do drop sbus and tcus and fight timers removes farmers all together but is even more boring than orbiting when the blueballs start coming.

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#162 - 2013-04-29 16:32:10 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Many people have no interest in having rabbit alts run timers and run from pvp. So we ask ccp to change the mechanics so that is no longer the winning strategy.


CCP isn't going to change anything because you're a whiny babby that isn't even involved in Faction Warfare right now. Any argument you attempt to make is lost, because guess what, you live in exactly the same place you did before, you just contribute nothing to that which you would argue about endlessly.

If you don't like faction warfare in it's current recreation, then quit (which you have) and stop whining about it on the forums (much to the betterment of everyone having to suffer through post after post of your endless drivel)



Xolve

Someone already beat you to the argument "if you don't like fw, then quit" and the other argument "yer not even in fw, so your view doesn't count"

But you are the first in this thread to make another of the standard arguments against making fw pvp.

7) "If you don't like fw then ....Stop posting on the forums that you don't like mechanics."

This is also a standard argument against making faction war sov a pvp game. Of course it makes no logical sense. But such illogical posts become the norm for people trying to defend the current rabbit plexing system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Rommell Drako
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2013-04-29 16:38:47 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:


Most Active Systems:
Kamela (3473)
Kourmonen (3121)
Huola (2320)
Sahtogas (1115)
Sosala (1097)

Most Active Systems:
Amamake (3986)
Rens (2823)
Siseide (2728)
Dal (2379)
Vard (1552)


i guess the 'being 1-2 jumps from the front lines and all.' confused you. and maybe the 'past few years' also confused you to.

and even so according to your own words 'Sahtogas is heating up recently but it traditionally isn't even one of the top pvp systems on that front' accord to this post you just made its in the top 5. so idk whats up with that.


LOL look at the numbers.... saht (1115). the lowest on the other list is Vard (1552). thus saying its still a slow system. This info doesnt have dates on it so i dont know wtf it is but you can still tell saht is a slow system.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#164 - 2013-04-29 16:46:03 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Jesus, Cearain. You act as if finding people plexing is hard. It's not. Right now no one shows up because no one gives a ****. Or, you know, they do show up, and the plexer runs. Or they show up and the plexer doesn't run and there's a fight.

Also, no.



You are right no one shows up because they don't give a ****. I agree. But the reason they don't give a **** is because the game is horribly broken. People try to win games that are fun and challenging. Not games that are broken and stupid. Right now FW sov is broken and stupid so few care to even try to win it.

I do all my pvp pretty much exlclusively in or at plexes. On average I would say I need to go about 5 systems to find someone running a plex. Often I will warp to plexes outside dscan range to find they are empty.

So if a pvper had a tool to allow him to go directly to where the plexes were being run he would be at least 5xs as efficient. After rabbits got repeatedly chased out of plexes and had that time wasted do to a rollback many if not all would leave to find some other pve activity. The rabbits would leave and the plexes would be taken by pvpers. FW sov would be a pvp mechanic.


So letting pvpers directly know where plexes are being capped will make them much more efficient and it will make the rabbits several times less efficient. Like I said its pretty straight forward.

But I guess your view is that no one will react to this intel right? I want to get this straight because these threads almost always end up with people arguing contradictions. Namely, some will say too many will react to the intel and it will be blobs! Others like you say no one will react to the intel. I think enough will react to the intel so rabbit plexing will end. But the war zone is too large (and there are too many different sized plexes) for a single or even 5 or 6 blobs to control the whole warzone.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#165 - 2013-04-29 17:12:02 UTC
Quote:
some will say too many will react to the intel and it will be blobs! Others like you say no one will react to the intel. I think enough will react to the intel so rabbit plexing will end. But the war zone is too large (and there are too many different sized plexes) for a single or even 5 or 6 blobs to control the whole warzone.


ALL of the above is the answer

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Almity
In Exile.
#166 - 2013-04-29 17:18:04 UTC
Still looking for a Euro corp to join us. Five to six competent pilots is enough to keep the Russians away. Plenty of pvp to be had against a few dedicated pilots and swarms of horrible pilots.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#167 - 2013-04-29 17:21:38 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Quote:
some will say too many will react to the intel and it will be blobs! Others like you say no one will react to the intel. I think enough will react to the intel so rabbit plexing will end. But the war zone is too large (and there are too many different sized plexes) for a single or even 5 or 6 blobs to control the whole warzone.


ALL of the above is the answer


Thanks alucard. I think this thread now has all the standard bad arguments to preserve the current rabbit plexing game called fw sov.

8) if we let the pvpers know where people are plexing no one will respond!

and in the very same post

9) If we let pvpers know where people are plexing too many will respond!

I think those were the last of the standard arguments in favor of keeping the current carebear race.

Now I think we can expect those who like the current hide and seek plexing to just continue with comments like "notifications are stupid" or "cearain shouldn't post so much"

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-04-29 18:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
Xolve wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
The systems always been broken and the same amarr that whined BEFORE inferno, whined while inferno and are still whining.


If only that put as much effort into the warzone as they did badposting on the forums...


how shamed we feel to try and fix somthing we love.

lets not bother posting anything about eve ever and just hope they guess right (cus that worked so great in the past).

im whining, you are the one bad posting irrelevant one liners

besides real answer: i cant play eve at work so i post to help the game i love for when i get home to play it.

fw was plenty of fun before inferno, instead of being enhanced with new features and mechanics, its got worse - but thats okay because the easymode farm alts are happy.

EDIT: also Xolve, how are you finding FW after this many months? oh wait never mind you left, question answered :P

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Akiko Mayaki
Toads of War
#169 - 2013-04-29 18:02:48 UTC
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Quote:
some will say too many will react to the intel and it will be blobs! Others like you say no one will react to the intel. I think enough will react to the intel so rabbit plexing will end. But the war zone is too large (and there are too many different sized plexes) for a single or even 5 or 6 blobs to control the whole warzone.


ALL of the above is the answer


Thanks alucard. I think this thread now has all the standard bad arguments to preserve the current rabbit plexing game called fw sov.

8) if we let the pvpers know where people are plexing no one will respond!

and in the very same post

9) If we let pvpers know where people are plexing too many will respond!

I think those were the last of the standard arguments in favor of keeping the current carebear race.

Now I think we can expect those who like the current hide and seek plexing to just continue with comments like "notifications are stupid" or "cearain shouldn't post so much"



I've read you say the same thing over and over, from thread to thread for literally months. No one here is saying FW is perfect, or that we shouldn't talk about changes.

This notification idea however, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

I don't chase farmers because they tend to be people that don't want to fight, its not because I cant find them or they 'give me the slip' and go into some back system. Peoples time is limited, the 'true pvpers' you care so much about are going to move on the instant a farmer shows what he is. Sure I could chase him, warp back and forth, maybe he'll slip up, but on average my time is better spent moving on. Again, what do I care if a stabbed condor is plexing 13 jumps away? Hes still going to be 30km off the warp in, stabbed, and in warp anyway by the time I land, nothing you do is going to change that.

Which brings me to my second point, why does anyone with a functioning brain want to rely on a notification system? The system doesnt know **** about my militias priorities, again, wtf do I care if some as***e is plexing in Nagamen in a cloaky rifter? Use your FW tab and see which systems are going up/down whatever, you'll notice if you actually care about those systems. Combined with intel channels and functioning intra militia relations, you will quickly be able to control your WZ. Quite frankly I would have to completely ignore you notification system if it was implemented, I'm sure others feel the same.

Your suggestions, to me, really highlight the fact that you do not operate within a militia. People hold on to the systems they decide to hold onto and live in. Systems where farming occurs that is detrimental to our militia, are quickly targeted and farmers dispersed. "Hide and Seek" plexing has not been the recent character of the relevant (to sov) aspects of FW. That you would think this in light of the past 5-6 months that has seen the advent of massive system capture efforts, home system versus home system, is quite bewildering.

There are farmers in Hallanen, but not in Nennamalia. Learn to live in or near systems you dont want farmed. A notification system is not going to grant you the ability to sail the seven seas slaying every farmer you see on some epic roam of the entirety of the FW WZ.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-04-29 18:08:58 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:


They pushed it to see if it COULD be done and to get some isk back for the LP they had. Minms reminded at a comfortable lvl and quickly regained control to a point thats it worse than it was before for the amarr.

The systems always been broken and the same amarr that whined BEFORE inferno, whined while inferno and are still whining.



So they proved it could be done then the tide can be turned with co-operation, hardwork + TZ coverage, Feature working as intended


yes with the man power it can, for the sake of a test. yes its possible, but what are you going to do, convince everyone in fw to change a side every few months to make it even? theres only so many that care in the first place and they tend ot stick to their sides.

you cant sustain the man power because of:
certian fw factions have better locations and adjacent systems
certain fw factions have more or less systems
FW prices dispite a full year basicly on one side, the other is still not close to being as profitable
new players are swayed by ease: locking them out of half the map or more makes joining the losing side stupid
new players looking to farm will only pick the easiest side
if a side overcomes the odds and swings things their way, they are all burned out and theres no replacements


it would take nothing more at this point to give a super duper awesome must-have ship or module in the losing side only to get the farmers to change - but they wont change they will make another alt and do it while theres money in it.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#171 - 2013-04-29 19:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Akiko Mayaki wrote:

This notification idea however, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

I don't chase farmers because they tend to be people that don't want to fight, its not because I cant find them or they 'give me the slip' and go into some back system. Peoples time is limited, the 'true pvpers' you care so much about are going to move on the instant a farmer shows what he is. Sure I could chase him, warp back and forth, maybe he'll slip up, but on average my time is better spent moving on. Again, what do I care if a stabbed condor is plexing 13 jumps away? Hes still going to be 30km off the warp in, stabbed, and in warp anyway by the time I land, nothing you do is going to change that.


OK so you are taking the position that the notifications will be ignored. Keep in mind that there are plenty of people who post that far from being ignored they will be watched closely not only by miltia but by neutrals with an alt in fw.

Moreover I know for a fact that I would love to know everyone plexing within 3 jumps of me. I love plex pvp. I am not the only one either. There are plenty of people who will respond to these notifications. Maybe you won't but plenty of people will.

Rabbits stick around because they can continue to plex without anyone coming to fight them. There is a reason they prefer systems with few in local. Very few will even know they are there. When you combine notifications with timer rollbacks you have a system where 5 or 6 pvp pilots spread out can easilly make sure that every plex is fought over.



Akiko Mayaki wrote:

Which brings me to my second point, why does anyone with a functioning brain want to rely on a notification system? The system doesnt know **** about my militias priorities, again, wtf do I care if some as***e is plexing in Nagamen in a cloaky rifter? Use your FW tab and see which systems are going up/down whatever, you'll notice if you actually care about those systems. Combined with intel channels and functioning intra militia relations, you will quickly be able to control your WZ. Quite frankly I would have to completely ignore you notification system if it was implemented, I'm sure others feel the same.



The idea behind fw sov war is that we are trying to win space for our faction. I know very few people care about it now. But that is largely because they see how silly it is to try to resist the rabbit hordes. If the fw sov game turned into a small gang pvp heavan, that would change. It would be something to brag about winning. Now its not.

So now in its broken state players either move out of the warzone completely, or they just pretty much care about 1 or 2 systems that they base out of. No one cares about the other 90% of the war zone because we don't have the tools to deal with rabbit plexers.

The notification system does not need to know your personal priorities. But for those who want to fight for sov for their militia it would be a great tool. Maybe you are not interested in the sov war and just want to hold one system to dock your ships. Thats fine you can still do that. But I can guarantee you that there are plenty of fw pvpers who love plex fighting and would love to know where they need to go to fight for the complexes. What supports this claim?

Consider that about 35% of the pvp in plexes involves players who are not even in the militia. They can't make the timer run. They can't get lp. They are just there for the high quality pvp plex mechanics can offer. When you think about that, you should realize that there are plenty of people who would love to fight over plexes thoughout the warzone. Not just be forced to one or two systems where the home team has all their booster alts and blobs.

Akiko Mayaki wrote:

Your suggestions, to me, really highlight the fact that you do not operate within a militia. People hold on to the systems they decide to hold onto and live in. Systems where farming occurs that is detrimental to our militia, are quickly targeted and farmers dispersed. "Hide and Seek" plexing has not been the recent character of the relevant (to sov) aspects of FW. That you would think this in light of the past 5-6 months that has seen the advent of massive system capture efforts, home system versus home system, is quite bewildering.

There are farmers in Hallanen, but not in Nennamalia. Learn to live in or near systems you dont want farmed. A notification system is not going to grant you the ability to sail the seven seas slaying every farmer you see on some epic roam of the entirety of the FW WZ.



I spent a few years in the miltia including being in the militia under the current mechanics. Moreover since leaving 95% of my eve time involves fighting in plexes. (the other 5% trade and moving ships) I know very well how the plex war works. Hide and seek plexing decides sov in 90% of the warzone. And the pvpers in fw don't have the tools to do anything about the hordes of rabbits.

There are rabbits in all the systems. Typically the rabbits in home systems are alts that just defensive plex when the enemy leaves.

CCP has already agreed a notification system and timer rollbacks are a good idea we just need to push them to get it done.

EDIT: As far as you telling me I don't know about what happens in a militia I see you joined caldari miltia after you were only a few minutes old about 4 months ago. Your killboard speaks volumes about why you are against a notification system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#172 - 2013-04-29 20:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Rommell Drako wrote:
Before I read and catch up on what was posted since my last post I wanted to share some numbers with you.

System control numbers for each warzone

Amarr/Minmatar
Vulnerable: 0
Above 90%: 1
80-90%: 2
70-80%: 2
60-70%: 3
50-60%: 7

Caldari/Gallente
Vulnerable: 19
90%: 10
80-90%: 8
70-80%: 4
60-70%: 2
50-60%: 9

How are there 19 systems that are vulnerable? Why has Gallente not flipped them? (all of the vulnerable systems are caldari owned, this is the definition of Minmatar plexing alts pushing their warzone).

This is the definition of broken. No one in the gallente wants to fight the warzone. They are either also plexing, leaving the system in caldari hands so they can continue to offensive plex it (more LP), or dont understand the flip mechanics.

Anyway you look at it you have to realize this is broken. EVE FARMVILLE ONLINE is what faction warfare is and if you cant tell that by the numbers then you might not be cut out for spreadsheets online.

These numbers are also the reason why I never care for the opinions from anyone on that side of the warzone. These numbers disgust me.


I think its a general consensus that we are happy at tier 2 and that leaving systems vulnerable actually starves minmatar farmers of LP. Caldari of course flip systems the second they go vulnerable which gives the farmers immediate grounds to work on. We then flip a couple of systems back to retain the balance as caldari already have more than enough systems to hit tier 2 but dont for one reason or another.

That is the shape of the gallente war-zone.

Rommell Drako wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Just ignore the fact that caldari score 30-40% more vp every day than gallente. Whats one more fact to ignore when you are in the swing of it, right Cearain?


You realize the minmatar plexers do not receive VP for taking plexes in the caldari warzone? this is why there are 19 systems vulnerable in caldari space but the caldari earn more VP then the gallente...

Please look up the actual numbers before posting.


Of course i know that, the comment you responded to was suggesting that gallente are winning because of OUR plexers. That is not the case. I could probably count on 1 hand the number of times gallente plexed more than caldari. As for diagonal plexing, yes, it is what maintains gallentes position. That position we manipulate to achieve only tier 2 while allowing the caldari to easily retain tier 2 if they ever want to.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#173 - 2013-04-29 20:11:56 UTC
I'm no genius, but I do recall that Devs and GMs tend to respond in the General Discussion and Featues & Ideas Discussion boards more ofen than the Warfare & Tactics forum. Just saying....
Maximus Hashur
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-04-29 20:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Hashur
The suggestion that has been made by multiple people to reset the timer when a farmer warps out would greatly change things. Sure there would still be some farmers making LP when no one challenges them, but they would be greatly disrupted by WTs and nuetrals coming in to lite them up.

If every time a farmer got chased out of a medium, the timer reset to 20 or 25 (whatever it is) then you would quickly see a reduction in carebears and an increase in those of us that take almost every fight.

I only warp out when the incoming ship/force is obviously too strong for me and is a loss waiting to happen. IE a rupture warping into the medium im trying to take in my cormorant. Will i lose the progress i made - yes. Did the defender do his job - yes.

If i cant hold control of the plex in one unbroken (no warpout) occupation of the site, i don't deserve the LP.

Come to think of it, add cloaking to that list also. No cloaking or the timer resets. These two measures combined would cripple plex farming and encourage only those that fight to try to take the plexes.

Looked up...saw this F***ING clown dropping like a rock.  Woke up in Vylade wondering what just happened!!!
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#175 - 2013-04-29 20:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
I do all my pvp pretty much exlclusively in or at plexes. On average I would say I need to go about 5 systems to find someone running a plex. Often I will warp to plexes outside dscan range to find they are empty.


Hardly seems that rabbit plexing is out of control if there are 5 empty systems in a row.

Also, you are terrible at finding pvp.

Cearain wrote:



The idea behind fw sov war is that we are trying to win space for our faction.


Not really dude, maybe for a washed up roleplayer such as yourself.

The actual idea behind the current sov was is as a conflict driver and a mechanic for people to pay for their PvP. If there is a problem with the current mechanics, it is that it is now clearly possible for one side to failscade for an extended period of time. Some intricate suggestions about diminishing VP returns inverse to the tier reward for LP for winning sound interesting but might have other consequences like amarr taking a minmatar home system in a few hours of plexing because of their VP bonus in their losing state.

I know this is far too complicated for you too understand. If you want end game sov-war move to dull sec and pollute CAOD with your complete stupidity.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-04-29 20:20:18 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
EDIT: also Xolve, how are you finding FW after this many months? oh wait never mind you left, question answered :P


It's a fun distraction, but the whole thing seems to 'entry level' to actually enjoy with High Skill points, removing larger scaled plexes (or making them really rare) was literally the bane of people who could fly things bigger than Frigates and Destroyers. I never cared about the warzone, loyalty points, farming or VP; I cared about shooting things, Fweddit devolved into a massive pve corp, so I left.

Because at it's core, that is what FW is, PVE. There's nothing wrong about posting about things you want fixed or are passionate about, it's just funny to me that the same people, post the same arguments, time and time again- if that effort was spent elsewhere they might see the fruits of their labor actually put to use, instead of smattering thread after thread with a mix of good and bad ideas that will never see the attention of the Developers.

There are people recently elected onto the CSM that actually care about FW, why band together with a few of your liked minded fellows and put something together to present to that CSM member, that given chance (Fozzie isn't done with FW) could present it at a round table/skype call/whatever.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#177 - 2013-04-29 20:31:30 UTC
Maximus Hashur wrote:
The suggestion that has been made by multiple people to reset the timer when a farmer warps out would greatly change things. Sure there would still be some farmers making LP when no one challenges them, but they would be greatly disrupted by WTs and nuetrals coming in to lite them up.

If every time a farmer got chased out of a medium, the timer reset to 20 or 25 (whatever it is) then you would quickly see a reduction in carebears and an increase in those of us that take almost every fight.

I only warp out when the incoming ship/force is obviously too strong for me and is a loss waiting to happen. IE a rupture warping into the medium im trying to take in my cormorant. Will i lose the progress i made - yes. Did the defender do his job - yes.

If i cant hold control of the plex in one unbroken (no warpout) occupation of the site, i don't deserve the LP.

Come to think of it, add cloaking to that list also. No cloaking or the timer resets. These two measures combined would cripple plex farming and encourage only those that fight to try to take the plexes.


I think thats too harsh. It removes the incentive to ship / form up to fight the people who kicked you from the plex if on your return the timer is back to scratch. That is why timers counting backwards is a good idea. Perhaps if the enemy stay in the plex the timer counts back twice as fast until it reaches its start point.

That would retain some incentive to come back for a fight, and for the other side, to wait for a fight.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#178 - 2013-04-29 20:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
cearain wrote:
No one cares about the other 90% of the war zone because we don't have the tools to deal with rabbit plexers.



Were do you get this notion from that people who dont care for backwater systems that see no action and serve no purpose to us suddendly become desirable just because we know someone plexing there. We already know people are plexing backwaters and still dont give a fk about them. They provide no military or strategic advantage to us like a home system does tyherefore is useless and not worth the manpower or time no notification will change that view

cearain wrote:
CCP has already agreed a notification system and timer rollbacks are a good idea we just need to push them to get it done.


ill think ull find thats wrong take a look at retribution roundup at this years fanfest the dev says he thought about a notification system and it was ready but yanked it due to it not being in the essence of a true sandbox

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-04-29 21:03:23 UTC
Xolve wrote:
true stuff


you told me im bad for caring and look at you, you do actually care you just like to hide it by being a big meany!

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#180 - 2013-04-29 21:21:12 UTC
Why do people still bleat on about making FW sov a pvp centric mechanism...


GET A GRIP PEOPLE!! PVP only sov mean structure bashing and superblobs. Why do you think null is so f'ked atm. And you want FW to follow THAT example?

I'll put it in simple terms so the slow among you can understand.

There are not enough players spread out across the TZ's to make a reliable pvp only sov mechanic.


Plain and simple, anyone with half a brain can see this.

The suggestions of timer rollbacks and reducing the LP payout bonuses are probably the most sensible sugestions on these type of threads.

My personal bugbear is the diagonal plexing. I believe that you should get the LP for the factions warzone you are fighting in at their teir lvl. (eg. minnie alt plex's a caldari system they should get gallente lp at gallente teir not minnie at whatever boosted teir they are at.)

And if anyone believes that PVP cannot have an effect sov then you obviously haven't been part of a home system offensive. The fact that 'rabbit' plexer exsist show fundementally that there isn't the playerbase to support a full pvp sov.


I think that the whine cycle has just repeated itself again!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.