These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#61 - 2013-04-29 18:53:02 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.


Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.
Khaim Khal
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-04-29 18:54:23 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.


What about the massive buff of nullsec low-end mining? It still won't allow null to self-supply, but it's going to help a lot.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#63 - 2013-04-29 18:54:30 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
That's why you should nerf importation of finished products (you can't nerf it completely because we still gotta import tons of ice highsec mines even under the 80% max plan, and export tons of moon mats) and buff the everliving **** out of mineral compression, not continue to believe that 0.0 should be mining its own lowends

or i mean let us do that in a reasonable way, I am all in favor of nerfing highsec into the ground but ending even their ability to mine for scraps is a little vicious even for me.



Does anyone else struggle to follow exactly what it is he is trying to say?
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#64 - 2013-04-29 18:55:13 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Agnar Volta wrote:
it's too dangerous


I say nonsense. My first time around eve about 3 years ago I was ice mining in providence with a mackinaw on my first account and was never really in danger with the intel you had about those that moved in and out of your area.


I'm not disagreeing with your past experience, but how will that translate to post-odyssey when ice might actually be valuable and rare enough to be controllable, and experienced ice monopolists are also very experienced in 23/7 cloaky camping to suppress people's ability to grind in null-sec?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-04-29 19:01:54 UTC
There is absolutely zero point to ******* with import/export processes or compression

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2013-04-29 19:04:00 UTC
Lallante wrote:

Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.


I am fine with 0.0 being self-sufficent but I am very aware ccp is not fine with nerfing highsec into the ground by ending demand for their lowend minerals. Consequently, I operate on the assumption that empire must export finished goods, or their lowends. To the extent you nerf mineral compression you just make it more likely that we start importing finished goods instead.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#67 - 2013-04-29 19:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Lallante wrote:

Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.


I am fine with 0.0 being self-sufficent but I am very aware ccp is not fine with nerfing highsec into the ground by ending demand for their lowend minerals. Consequently, I operate on the assumption that empire must export finished goods, or their lowends. To the extent you nerf mineral compression you just make it more likely that we start importing finished goods instead.


Please explain how your argument against nerfing mineral compression applies following the ore changes in null.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2013-04-29 19:12:01 UTC
Lallante wrote:

I don't really understand what I've said that you disagree with here.

The Industrial alliances had mostly died before the drone regions were even introduced in the Revelations expansion in winter 2006. You seem to be conflating 2003-2006 whereas the industrial alliances' hayday was a 2 year period from late 2003/early 2004 (XETIC, FA, CFS) to late 2006 (ASCN). All of them were dead by the time the drone regions came online. The drone regions may have killed mining, but it cant be said to have killed 0.0 industrial alliances.

I do not really care about the pre-july 2005 0.0 because an 0.0 without dreads sovereignty, industry without freighters, and mining without cloaked ships is sort of...irrelevant to any discussion of what killed industrial alliances in 0.0 because we're barely even discussing the same game.

Greyscale identifies the introduction of invention as the death of the industrial alliance. If you're arguing it was already dead at that point, well whatever we're talking about different types of industrial alliances.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2013-04-29 19:14:01 UTC
Lallante wrote:

Please explain how your argument against nerfing mineral compression applies following the ore changes in null.


please explain how your argument that it needs to be nerfed applies if 0.0 is self sufficent, given your assumptions

you'll quickly see why
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-04-29 19:16:21 UTC
Lallante wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.


Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.


No you haven't done the math. The ore changes do not make 0.0 wholly self sufficient. It helps with T1 production yes, but the grav sites are still high end heavy, and not able to support heavy industry in the low end volumes required. There will still be importation.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2013-04-29 19:17:02 UTC
eh you probably won't bother so here: it is highly unlikely that 0.0 actually becomes self-sufficient for lowends (and ccp is explicit they do not want it to be) so if it becomes self-sufficient it will be nerfed

if 0.0 is self-sufficient a mineral compression nerf is entirely unneeded and pointless, if a mineral compression nerf is doing anything, then 0.0 is not self-sufficient and you are incentivizing importing finished products
Danni stark
#72 - 2013-04-29 19:20:40 UTC
even under the assumption 0.0 becomes self sufficient, it'll always overproduce high end minerals. it has to.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2013-04-29 19:22:44 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
even under the assumption 0.0 becomes self sufficient, it'll always overproduce high end minerals. it has to.

I mean that's fine (they don't need to be compressed) but then mining in empire becomes so unprofitable ccp is forced to take action.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#74 - 2013-04-29 19:28:53 UTC
Lallante wrote:


Personally, I'd also remove jump drives from jump freighters or at the very least ban them from empire. **** those things tbh.


Wouldn't it make more sense to equalise opportunity between 0.0 and hi-sec, so that JFing everything up from hi-sec becomes increasingly moot? Shouldn't 0.0 regions be able to easily trade with each other? Why should 0.0 have its throat cut before this is achieved?

Seriously, you're trying to cure a broken leg by banning bandages and plaster.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2013-04-29 19:29:56 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Danni stark wrote:
even under the assumption 0.0 becomes self sufficient, it'll always overproduce high end minerals. it has to.

I mean that's fine (they don't need to be compressed) but then mining in empire becomes so unprofitable ccp is forced to take action.


No, he means that hi-sec will always have a comparitive advantage in producing low-ends, so there will still be trade between hi-sec and 0.0. It's just that the trade won't be so massively unequal.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#76 - 2013-04-29 19:31:58 UTC
Lallante wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
That's why you should nerf importation of finished products (you can't nerf it completely because we still gotta import tons of ice highsec mines even under the 80% max plan, and export tons of moon mats) and buff the everliving **** out of mineral compression, not continue to believe that 0.0 should be mining its own lowends

or i mean let us do that in a reasonable way, I am all in favor of nerfing highsec into the ground but ending even their ability to mine for scraps is a little vicious even for me.



Does anyone else struggle to follow exactly what it is he is trying to say?


If you cut 0.0's ability to import trit/pyer, then hi-sec loses it's main market. Thus the cost of trit/pyer tanks and hi-sec mining becomes worthless.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#77 - 2013-04-29 19:56:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lallante wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
That's why you should nerf importation of finished products (you can't nerf it completely because we still gotta import tons of ice highsec mines even under the 80% max plan, and export tons of moon mats) and buff the everliving **** out of mineral compression, not continue to believe that 0.0 should be mining its own lowends

or i mean let us do that in a reasonable way, I am all in favor of nerfing highsec into the ground but ending even their ability to mine for scraps is a little vicious even for me.



Does anyone else struggle to follow exactly what it is he is trying to say?


If you cut 0.0's ability to import trit/pyer, then hi-sec loses it's main market. Thus the cost of trit/pyer tanks and hi-sec mining becomes worthless.


High-sec industrialists will need to sponsor more hulk-a-thons.

Just kidding, you've made a good point there.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#78 - 2013-04-29 20:01:51 UTC
It's worth remembering that, after the proposed changes, 0.0 will still only produce a few percent of the low ends required to use up all the Zydrine & Megacyte. The other 95% or more will have to be imported from empire, and presumably will be paid for with surplus Zyd/Mega.

In practice, the amount of low ends 0.0 imports won't decrease much, nor will the amount of high ends it exports, and hi-sec will remain the dominant location for industry for a long time to come, barring far more radical changes than this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-04-29 20:06:00 UTC
Lallante wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.


Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.




Hi. Evidently, you haven't done the math on the ore changes either.

http://i.imgur.com/P1NWgon.png

The numbers for each site are the number of times you have to mine out that site to get the minerals for the given item(s). Since I forgot to label it, the minerals go left to right, mega/zyd/nocx/isogen/mex/pyerite/trit.

So, it's an improvement by means of raw volume available to be sure, but lets not go and pretend that the ratios are actually proportional to T1 mineral demand.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#80 - 2013-04-29 20:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Andski wrote:
can you tell me how we managed to reduce the number of slots in all of nullsec to a miniscule fraction of hisec's capacity through sandbox magic

because well you can't sandbox your way around hard mechanics limitations


The bottleneck in slots is the 11 slot of char maximum, which for a fresh t2 alt take 70-80 days to start using with all the other skills needed. How many really have trouble finding slots.

Slots is only one factor as well. Being close to jita means less hauling expense. It means a liquid market to absorb your output, endless supply of inventory that you can operate a just-in-time system to tie up less capital. Being in the forge means a prod alt can do buying and selling rather than wasting a char on a jita alt. Pos assets are not at risk.

Who in their right mind is going to do manufacture as an isk maker in null.