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(Odyssey) Exploration Site Mechanics

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Author
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#281 - 2013-04-29 17:37:30 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

We can always try and figure out something better.


I wonder if there's a thread in F&I.

Blink

Looked at that thread and somehow I did not find the words "Instead of having items explode out in space what the mechanic should be is..." But I do like the idea of exploration sites far out in the darkness, and exploration sites that escalate to new sites. However remember that soon after release all the answers will be on Eve Survival Guide.

If you do not like items exploding out into space, what do you want to see instead? And lets not say things like " it should not be a twitch game" or "it should be fun", lets have actual descriptions of the game mechanic. What happens? What does the player do?
For example, right now the mechanic is "target can, activate module, wait for a successful cycle, loot".
The new mechanic is "Solve mini game, wait for item spew, click on green items, fly after them if you get too far away".

Is there some other mechanic we would rather see?

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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#282 - 2013-04-29 17:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Mara Rinn, something like kill mails but for exploration is something we talked about. Ditto for mining operations. Information that you can directly compare with your past performance and other peoples performance.


if you are doing this, think about unifying this with all the other scattered statistics. For example the epic arc journal and stuff. I am sure many explorers would like to know when they found all the different sites/escalations and stuff. So much potential to make the journal far more interesting.

edit: for example the combat log should really be in the journal not in the char sheet.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#283 - 2013-04-29 17:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Vincent Athena wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

We can always try and figure out something better.


I wonder if there's a thread in F&I.

Blink

Looked at that thread and somehow I did not find the words "Instead of having items explode out in space what the mechanic should be is..."


You need to keep reading the thread. It's down the page a bit:

Quote:
I'd like to see wrecks of caravans that early pioneers took and fell upon tragedy. Long dead colonies. Talocan sites. Dead rogue drone hives. Fleet graveyards. Random derelict ships.

You will not be able to bookmark the sites.

Many of the sites might lead you to another system, or another wormhole. You might have to go to a specific cosmos agent in empire and talk to them to get more information. They might lead you to yet another system. The price isn't having a pimped out ship, it's not killing rats. It's putting the pieces of the puzzle together and taking the time to figure out the mystery. you might find items or ships logs that are completely useless for weeks unitl another site references them and you think "aha! this makes sense I know what to do!"


I didn't see a huge problem with the current system of targetting and activating a module, however I do welcome the hacking interface.

The change I wanted the most when it came to the asthetics of the site was eliminating the jetcan. It's completely out of place.

After you hack a site, I see no reason for it to eject the loot. It make zero sense at all. Since when does a shipwreck just explode with stuff when it's hacked? This isn't NCIS.

edit: ok let me brainstorm off the top of my head.

You hack the artifact. You then have access to possible things depending on the artifact:

- logs
- personal journals
- interesting, random items that may be meaningful
- cargo
- salvage
- rare minerals or items

And maybe once you loot the item it sets off an alarm. Maybe a self destruct. Maybe it opens a public beacon like a distress call where suddenly you have a warpable beacon to your exact location (oh crap, get the stuff and go!)

Maybe there are drone AI that come to the wreck's defense.

Maybe nothing happens at all.

Maybe the site itself just vanishes without a trace as if it never existed, everything gone with it as well. Like a ghost.

The possibilities are endless.... and not like trying to chase after a dropped bag of skittles.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2013-04-29 18:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: pmchem
blink alt wrote:
Sure I could come up with this perfect profile that makes it easy to multibox and keep all the isk for myself but that seems like too much work. Now on the other hand, if a professional site is dropping on average the same as it is now but you need to grab ALL the cans to get the same isk you would of got before then I think that will push me over the edge and just multibox it and screw being social


There's a balancing line which CCP needs to find between encouraging player interactions and supporting people who multibox. I totally understand that they don't want someone to be running 8+ accounts to "grab all the loots". They want social interactions. That's okay.

I multibox, and I've been using my 3-account team to run exploration sites for years. It's not excessive, and I do not use ISBoxer or any other program to do it. However, if the new loot mechanic punishes players like me by making that second or third account basically useless for the new exploration sites... ugh! I would be more likely to just close the account than try and get others to join my fleet.

I have little time to login and play EVE, and often just want to run off and do things solo (and by solo, I mean multiboxing). Please make the new mechanic -- the timer intervals which you have to grab loot -- friendly to the small scale, 2-4 account multiboxer. We're the backbone of the active exploration playerbase.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#285 - 2013-04-29 18:11:28 UTC
It shouldn't even require multiboxing.

I still think you may occasionally need backup. You may need someone to help. It shouldn't be a set variable though.

I shouldn't thing that just because I'm hacking in a C6 that I need somone or an alt to clear it first, but there may be a random time that I do.

I shouldn't need to have 3 people to explore a site that's been abondoned for centuries.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#286 - 2013-04-29 18:32:59 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
....

I didn't see a huge problem with the current system of targetting and activating a module, however I do welcome the hacking interface.

The change I wanted the most when it came to the asthetics of the site was eliminating the jetcan. It's completely out of place.

After you hack a site, I see no reason for it to eject the loot. It make zero sense at all. Since when does a shipwreck just explode with stuff when it's hacked? This isn't NCIS.


Im still missing something here. After I hack the site, what do you think I should be doing to move the items into my ship? They cannot just all move in automatically, there may not be room.
If there is no diamond symbol in space indicating a container that I can take stuff from, what is there that tells me "this is a place that has stuff"?
As for realism, on the first space station "Skylab" the astronauts routinely complained that whenever they opened a drawer all the items in it would go spewing all over the station. They called it the "Jack in the box effect".

http://www.artificial-gravity.com/Dissertation/2_1.htm

"Over-stuffed or poorly-packed containers have a jack-in-the-box effect when opened; to astronaut Ed Gibson, the Skylab film vault was a "snake pit"."

And that was inside the space station. Outside, in vacuum, the released air pressure would make the effect much stronger.

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Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#287 - 2013-04-29 18:39:07 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:


Im still missing something here. After I hack the site, what do you think I should be doing to move the items into my ship? They cannot just all move in automatically, there may not be room.
If there is no diamond symbol in space indicating a container that I can take stuff from, what is there that tells me "this is a place that has stuff"?
As for realism, on the first space station "Skylab" the astronauts routinely complained that whenever they opened a drawer all the items in it would go spewing all over the station. They called it the "Jack in the box effect".

http://www.artificial-gravity.com/Dissertation/2_1.htm

"Over-stuffed or poorly-packed containers have a jack-in-the-box effect when opened; to astronaut Ed Gibson, the Skylab film vault was a "snake pit"."

And that was inside the space station. Outside, in vacuum, the released air pressure would make the effect much stronger.



Why do the items need to be ejected in any sort?

You now have a hacking interface. After that you have a window with what you have. It doesn't need to be a physical can. This is a big stretch, so bear with me..

The stuff that's discovered inside the artifact should be shown as.. part of the artifact.

Also, comparing opening a drawer of loose stuff in the ISS isn't really comparable to finding data logs.

Suddenly the data bits become physical matter and start flying away at 1200m/s!

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Danny Centauri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2013-04-29 19:03:07 UTC
Personally I really like the look of the new mechanic, including can ejection.

However, to stop the whiners why not make it a choice, so you can either take 3 cans worth of loot or risk it with your friends burst it all into space and grab more.

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None ofthe Above
#289 - 2013-04-29 19:19:04 UTC
The hacking mini-game and loot explosion are amusing mechanics.

But I worry that they will become deadly tedious in the long run.

I like the concept of enabling more Hacking, the idea of Hacking abandoned POSes might be a good place to apply this as well.

Opposition would help, automated defenses that would either kick you out or trigger a more hostile response if you fail.

High skill levels cutting through the task or revealing optimal paths could keep career explorers from quitting after a while.

High skill levels could also help minimize the "explosion" of loot perhaps.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#290 - 2013-04-29 19:23:12 UTC
Drunken Bum wrote:
Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.


every action in every game is a mini game. Moving your reticle to shoot a target in a shooter is an accuracy minigame, throwing a grenade at the proper trajectory is a minigame.

Fitting your ship properly is a minigame, hauling loot is a minigame, blah blah blah.

If you are inciting hacking should NOT have a minigame and you don't actually need skill to hack something, that's stupid. It should be the player that decides whether something gets hacked, not the level of your hacking skill.

The explosion of loot thing is odd, I hope getting a small amount of the loot is worth it if you can't get all of it.

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Xonus Calimar
CaeIum Incognitum
#291 - 2013-04-29 19:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Xonus Calimar
Georgina Parmala wrote:

I would still rather see the hacking part take a significant amount of time. Bringing a second person along, to contribute in hacking, should then reduce that time by 75%. It should be better because you cover more territory and clear more content together than going after sites individually and in a safer manner. Not because the loot drops increase to scale with number of players. Especially from a hacking site, where you are essentially stealing secured information from a computer...from cans flying out an airlock.


Just going by what I saw in the Fanfest demo, this seems fairly possible. It looks like you get a spattering of nodes, just start from wherever, and go from node to node without much guidance. If two people can start at once, or one joins in midway, you can cover more ground.

Plus you can make the hacking open to anyone at the time, so you can beat someone to the punch, barf the loot, and take stuff while they are still in the hacking screen.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#292 - 2013-04-29 19:36:04 UTC
I like the changes to exploration but what I dont like is things flying from cans and not catching them, like others have said a sense of failure will surley be on my shoulders. Bring friends you say, well thats not always doable for many reasons mine being I simply dont want to, I like being solo when exploring cause it adds to the thrill of it all. I understand this is a mmo but I dont need to socialize with you to interact with you, there is a difference.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#293 - 2013-04-29 19:39:36 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
But I worry that they will become deadly tedious in the long run.


That is my primary concern, very closely followed by, "ejecting cans into space? Really?" But I am trying to find a way of telling CCP that I don't like the idea without coming across as a rapid forum poster. It comes down to ejecting cans into space not making sense to me, but I just can't figure why it doesn't make sense when FTL travel, transfer if consciousness from an expiring body to a fresh one, and spooky action at a distance don't phase me at all.

For the moment I am just going to enjoy my vacation then think about the new hacking mini game when it arrives in Odyssey.
Haulie Berry
#294 - 2013-04-29 19:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Drunken Bum wrote:
Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.


every action in every game is a mini game. Moving your reticle to shoot a target in a shooter is an accuracy minigame, throwing a grenade at the proper trajectory is a minigame.

Fitting your ship properly is a minigame, hauling loot is a minigame, blah blah blah.

If you are inciting hacking should NOT have a minigame and you don't actually need skill to hack something, that's stupid. It should be the player that decides whether something gets hacked, not the level of your hacking skill.

The explosion of loot thing is odd, I hope getting a small amount of the loot is worth it if you can't get all of it.


I think the fundamental difference is the perceived degree of accuracy in the "minigame" emulating those particular actions.

When I aim a gun in a video game, it's a relatively close approximation (or virtualization) of aiming a real gun. You have a target, you have crosshairs, you place the crosshairs on the target, you "pull" the trigger, and it all maps together in a fairly intuitive fashion, despite the fact that you're controlling the process with a digital controller instead of physically aiming a real gun. As a result, it doesn't have the same feeling that other "mini games" have, where completing one task successfully triggers an event that isn't mapped in an intuitive fashion to the minigame.

It's easy to emulate firing a gun in an intuitive fashion. Hacking/lockpicking/other frequently "mini-gamed" activities, less so. Real lock-picking, for instance, is a completely tactile activity (at least for your standard pin-tumbler lock) - you feel which pin is obstructing the cylinder, and you feel the cylinder shift ever-so-slightly when you nudge that pin up to the shear line. This isn't really a process that translates well to a strictly audio/visual medium, so you end up with, e.g., Fallout/Skyrim lockpicking minigames that recreate what a person would imagine picking a lock would *look* like, but don't actually bear any resemblance (not even a digital, virtualized resemblance) to the actual activity.

"My Pokevirus beat up the Pokefirewall" and "some loot shot into space" are activities that are mechanically connected in-game, but they don't "feel" connected from the player's perspective (imo).

Like I said before, though: Still loads better than watching a module cycle for a few seconds. Hopefully it won't be too terribly long before we see some further refinements.
Mercedes Chance
GDC Enterprises
#295 - 2013-04-29 19:56:33 UTC
Drunken Bum wrote:
Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.


Yeah I am not cised for this part. The lockpick and hack mini-games of Fallout 3 were annoying but at least they were fairly quick to blow through and game time was frozen when you did it. In EVE I don't like being "blind" for that long, no matter where I am at, even in a Dungeon. The exploding cargo bay I get from an aesthetic sense, but the red/green flash, short lifespan deal I am also not liking. I popped the can, explosive decompression scattered them, cool. But its not like some fitting is gonna magically disintegrate once exposed to the void of space, technically it would be the opposite.
Lucas Irvam
The Anodyne Consortium
#296 - 2013-04-29 20:15:23 UTC
I've skimmed the thread but haven't read every post, so forgive me if it's already been covered, but how would 'bringing a friend' to help gather in the containers lead to more profit? If hacking a site flings 10 containers out into space, and I can only grab 5 by myself, I get half of what the full site was worth. If I bring a friend and we both grab 5, we've gathered the full worth of the site, but then I have to split the ISK with my friend, bringing me back to half of the site's total worth.

And that's best case scenario for the math, no? If hacking a site flings 6 containers, I grab 5 and my friend grabs the 6th, I've basically cost myself 2 containers worth of ISK by bringing along a buddy.

Again, apologies if it's been covered already, but I read a few replies that mention 'bringing a friend to get the most out of the site', and I feel like I'm missing something.

(Also, while I'm here: hacking interface is interesting, the gathering minigame seems like a weird Space Fruit Ninja addition totally out of place with the rest of the game, and no rats in profession sites is a head-scratcher.)
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#297 - 2013-04-29 20:17:23 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.

98% of what I do in Eve is in a group.

That's a tired old argument: EVE pve must not be fun because we have so much fun with ourselves on comms. Sure, even an evening of toilet-scrubbing can be a great time if you do it together with your best friends. Does that mean that toilet-scrubbing is fun?

EVE pve is toilet-scrubbing with friends. I'd rather have canyon-rafting with friends.

.

Rytell Tybat
Doomheim
#298 - 2013-04-29 20:18:12 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:

It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.


Really excited about this feature. Looks very promising, not just in its first release but potentially in further iterations. Couple questions tho...

Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game.

There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise.

Keep up the good work! Big smile
Mercedes Chance
GDC Enterprises
#299 - 2013-04-29 20:19:49 UTC
Sorcha Lothain wrote:
Dring Dingle wrote:
Tbh... I half expected the pick a lock from skyrim


Nice.

They would have to add blueprints, so people could make them and sell them at a million ISK each. I guess they could also add horse armor that you would have to buy with real money.......oh wait.


Screwdriver, bobby pin . . . SNAP!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-04-29 20:22:42 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.

98% of what I do in Eve is in a group.

That's a tired old argument: EVE pve must not be fun because we have so much fun with ourselves on comms. Sure, even an evening of toilet-scrubbing can be a great time if you do it together with your best friends. Does that mean that toilet-scrubbing is fun?

EVE pve is toilet-scrubbing with friends. I'd rather have canyon-rafting with friends.

No, in fleets, not just on comms.

I figured that was pretty clear, but if not.. we don't do much solo.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.