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FEDERATION DENIES REPUBLIC REQUEST FOR EXTRADITION OF SHOOTER

Author
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#81 - 2013-04-28 17:04:31 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
The basic legal quarrel here is simple: Federation law has it that because the crime happened in Federation territory, it should be judged solely under Federation law; tribal law has it that because the crime was clearly targeted against the tribe(s), tribal law has precedence.


Generously assuming that you understand the terminology, are you trying to say that while the Federation has jurisdiction, the choice of laws that its courts should apply are "tribal?" And is "tribal" being used primarily as an emotionally hip rust elf synonym for "Matari;" or do each of those squabbling little packs of primitives have their own legal systems?

Hypothetical: Brutor kills Sebiestor on station administered by Krusual in Republic space.

Who has jurisdiction and which law applies?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2013-04-28 18:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Anabella Rella wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Adreena Madeveda wrote:
If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.

It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism.


Dude what?


I believe that was directed at Lyn "Holier and Smarter Than Thou" Farel.


Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...

^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-04-28 21:57:25 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

Perhaps it was an attack against "both of us" rather than just the Tribes, but if that is the case, then the Federation should be collaborating with our Republic in their investigation rather than excluding us entirely.


I'd personally be fine with Minmatar collaboration, however that's only based off of the extremely limited knowledge we have. Right now, there is nothing to suggest that the Minmatar shouldn't collaborate with us, nor is there anything to suggest that they should.

Sanadras Riahn wrote:


It's for this precise reason that I will be revoking my status as a citizen of the Gallente Federation and returning to Republic space to mourn and hope with my Sebiestor brothers and sisters.


You know, you don't need to revoke your citizenship just to travel to Republic space. Not only does the Federation allow unrestricted movement of citizens, but capsuleers have unlimited movement as well.

Quote:
And considering the storm that is brewing and from whom, I would not be surprised to see an attempt on the Federation President's life.


Is this a threat?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#84 - 2013-04-28 22:58:21 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

We have a lot of regard for citizenship and sovereignty. What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen.

And the Federation won't give him up. How would that look to you, if our positions were reversed? From this end, it looks like they're trying to quietly bury the whole affair.

I'm sorry I sound so bitter. I've just seen far too much in my life to put much stock in the 'good will' of humanity.

You assume a good deal in assessing my grasp, be sure to look in all the corners.

“Beloved political figure”, and I thought Federation politics was fickel.. The same “beloved figure” that was unceremoniously bounced from her exalted office by the very same mod now wailing her praise.

Who are “they”, these dark figures you have conjured that want to bury the affair? Trials in the Federation are spectacles, the media will make certain of that.

While you're wondering about reversed positions... how do you think it looks to the Federation.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#85 - 2013-04-29 12:28:43 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
nor is there anything to suggest that they should.



Did you forget who the victims of the attack were?
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#86 - 2013-04-29 12:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
The Federation is gloriously demonstrating what it believes of our government, the Minmatar people's culture, and the competence of our judicial system.

They are also demonstrating what simply wonderful allies they are by telling us nothing.

Pretty much status quo. Treat us like children, and if we get angry, act surprised and yell "But youre acting like children! Waah!"

And Farel, go eat a cucumber.

You need salt.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#87 - 2013-04-29 14:15:41 UTC
When friends disagree, more important than the statment of disagreement is the statement and affirmation, "We are still friends." In recent days, I have become convinced all the more of the importance of this. Those who desire to bring terror and anarchy to our cluster are looking for the door to crack open. When an alliance, a friendship, weakens to the point where animosity develops, the violent will enter that doorway.

In this tense time, the Federation and the Republic need to say to one another, "We will get through this and we will stay friends." This does not diminish the severity of the disagreement, but does affirm commitment to friendship. It sends a signal to those who would foment violence from instabilty that these quarreling friends remain friends regardless.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#88 - 2013-04-29 14:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Quote:
Hypothetical: Brutor kills Sebiestor on station administered by Krusual in Republic space.


As I understand (and I still do not have formal legal training or experience in inter-tribal courts), Krusual personnel will likely do the initial arrest and investigation, as they are on site. They will be compensated for their trouble, and Sebiestor personnel will take over in co-operation with the Krusual station. Sebiestor court will judge in co-operation with Brutor advisory. When a decision is reached, the Brutor will likely request and be given custody of the culprit and for the punishment itself.

I used "tribal" there instead of Matari, because based on current information this is primarily a Sebiestor matter. When more information on the victims is released, it might turn out it is a Republic matter ("Republic" as in the alliance of tribes), if most/all tribes were wronged and we want to deal with that on alliance level. "Tribal" covers both options.

Hope this clarifies.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#89 - 2013-04-29 16:12:48 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...

^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite.


You're correct, it was pretty lame, to be honest. I'd hoped for much better. I guess the rarefied air on that holy high mountain you sit on must be depriving your brain of oxygen. Oh well, keep trying hon. Someday you'll be able to play with the big kids.

Oh, and I guess this does prove that you're still, at least nominally, human since your ego and pride demanded that you respond.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2013-04-29 18:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Ava Starfire wrote:

And Farel, go eat a cucumber.

You need salt.


And you wonder why people treat you as children ?

Anabella Rella wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...

^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite.


You're correct, it was pretty lame, to be honest. I'd hoped for much better. I guess the rarefied air on that holy high mountain you sit on must be depriving your brain of oxygen. Oh well, keep trying hon. Someday you'll be able to play with the big kids.

Oh, and I guess this does prove that you're still, at least nominally, human since your ego and pride demanded that you respond.


I guess it all boils down to a matter of tastes. I personally find my own snipe, as much trite and petty as this kind of vapid things always are, ten times better than your own. All of them. It is no wonder why people often refer to the IGS as a cesspool.

Also, that proves exactly nothing since I do not obviously share your definition of being human. As much as facts tend to prove otherwise, I do not define being human by its proportion of utterly superficial and over emotional behaviors. That would be closer to the definition of an animal.
Argoist Zxim
Terraprobe Dynamics
#91 - 2013-04-29 19:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Argoist Zxim
Thought I'd put this out there.

The lack of information shared on the the Federation's part may simply be to protect the integrity of an investigation into the perps terrorist connections.

The lack of transparency is understandably upsetting to some, but lets take a logical, rational approach to this.

If the federation were to share sensitive information before the investigation is complete, it would only take one person somewhere along the line sharing information (persons-of-interest, possible leads) with someone they shouldn't to catastrophically damage the whole exercise.

People who need to be questioned would be driven underground, possible additional evidence of a larger conspiracy destroyed, maybe even porvoke another attack.

All because one person (diplomat, low level security, office admin, anyone that would need to get involved to share the information with the Republic really) couldn't keep their mouth shut.

I'm not saying that the federation is right in what it is doing, because NONE of us have enough information to make that call. I'm just saying all this posturing accomplishes very little, especially if they DO have a good reason to keep this under wraps.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#92 - 2013-04-29 21:05:17 UTC
Argoist Zxim wrote:
Thought I'd put this out there.

The lack of information shared on the the Federation's part may simply be to protect the integrity of an investigation into the perps terrorist connections.

The lack of transparency is understandably upsetting to some, but lets take a logical, rational approach to this.

If the federation were to share sensitive information before the investigation is complete, it would only take one person somewhere along the line sharing information (persons-of-interest, possible leads) with someone they shouldn't to catastrophically damage the whole exercise.

People who need to be questioned would be driven underground, possible additional evidence of a larger conspiracy destroyed, maybe even porvoke another attack.

All because one person (diplomat, low level security, office admin, anyone that would need to get involved to share the information with the Republic really) couldn't keep their mouth shut.

I'm not saying that the federation is right in what it is doing, because NONE of us have enough information to make that call. I'm just saying all this posturing accomplishes very little, especially if they DO have a good reason to keep this under wraps.


Perhaps if the Federation had refrained from directly insulting the Republic and our ability to handle judicial matters and instead acknowledged willingness to cooperate with Minmatar Officials in the investigation we would be more willing to accept the lack of public information, as well as the refusal of extradition. The Federation clearly does not care what their allies think of the situation, however.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#93 - 2013-04-29 21:20:35 UTC
And yet Capt. Farel you choose to continue the verbal jabs back and forth so, who's really the winner here? I think Capt. Rella and Shaman Starfire pretty much did. By keeping the banter going you've shown how easy it is to get under your skin. You realize that they'll continue just to get a response which only makes you look silly?

So much for your supposed superiority.

On topic though, I feel the Federal government should release the information they have with the Republic. It says more about us how we've treated our Matari allies than it does about their understandable reactions. We should maintain jurisdiction but, what would it hurt to have a joint investigation and consultations regarding a trial and possible punishment?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#94 - 2013-04-29 21:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Quite frankly there is a level of hypocrisy here that is staggering, people stating how their law does not recognise the law of their allies and then expecting their law to be respected instead. There has been much shouting and demanding from the Republic about their wants, wishes and such with little to no respect for Federal tradition and law for an act committed on their soil.

Yes the Federation could have been more empathetic to the Republic's situation, but when your allies first act was to jump a fleet into your space and make demands with no care for your own way of things, it's easy to see where the stubborn brutes amongst those in charge took a rather bull headed response to the situation and decided to just get on with things. If anything the Federation can certainly be flawed for at least having far too much pride at times in such matters.

Furthermore, this constant demand of details to be released to us, who are little more than Joe public, on a case that is not yet fully investigated, let alone gone through the judicial process, is either a demonstration of cluelessness as to how judicial process works, complete idiocy to think it wouldn't apply here, or utter deranged lunacy from people thinking they're THAT important to have to know all the details at the risk of someone tampering with the system.



Perhaps it would be best if people spent less time pointing fingers and crying out ignorance to their ways, and spent more time learning the ways of others.


Of course by all means decry this as another post from someone sat atop their high chair because you can't actually debate the argument. Then again, some people don't even care so much what the argument is and more just attack the person saying it and sink into a childish level of petty insults and an interstellar version of classroom bullying.


And yet you wonder why the Federal Judicial system won't release details of the investigation to you that haven't been given to the public.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#95 - 2013-04-29 21:23:34 UTC
Argoist Zxim wrote:
Thought I'd put this out there.

The lack of information shared on the the Federation's part may simply be to protect the integrity of an investigation into the perps terrorist connections.

The lack of transparency is understandably upsetting to some, but lets take a logical, rational approach to this.

If the federation were to share sensitive information before the investigation is complete, it would only take one person somewhere along the line sharing information (persons-of-interest, possible leads) with someone they shouldn't to catastrophically damage the whole exercise.

People who need to be questioned would be driven underground, possible additional evidence of a larger conspiracy destroyed, maybe even porvoke another attack.

All because one person (diplomat, low level security, office admin, anyone that would need to get involved to share the information with the Republic really) couldn't keep their mouth shut.

I'm not saying that the federation is right in what it is doing, because NONE of us have enough information to make that call. I'm just saying all this posturing accomplishes very little, especially if they DO have a good reason to keep this under wraps.


Valid points but, why not just come out and say that releasing information at this point could damage the investigation, if that's the case, rather than total silence?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#96 - 2013-04-29 21:26:54 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:

Valid points but, why not just come out and say that releasing information at this point could damage the investigation, if that's the case, rather than total silence?


Because even the indication that they're onto something would be a large enough hint to certain groups that they might need to double back and check they cleaned up all their tracks.

When you're investigating something, until it is all compiled and brought to court you reveal nothing that you cannot be 100% sure is safe to reveal.

Heck, part of me even thinks that the line stating the shooter was a Federal citizen is a curve ball they've put in to throw people off the scent that they're being followed.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#97 - 2013-04-29 22:59:30 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Quite frankly there is a level of hypocrisy here that is staggering, people stating how their law does not recognise the law of their allies and then expecting their law to be respected instead. There has been much shouting and demanding from the Republic about their wants, wishes and such with little to no respect for Federal tradition and law for an act committed on their soil.

Yes the Federation could have been more empathetic to the Republic's situation, but when your allies first act was to jump a fleet into your space and make demands with no care for your own way of things, it's easy to see where the stubborn brutes amongst those in charge took a rather bull headed response to the situation and decided to just get on with things. If anything the Federation can certainly be flawed for at least having far too much pride at times in such matters.

Furthermore, this constant demand of details to be released to us, who are little more than Joe public, on a case that is not yet fully investigated, let alone gone through the judicial process, is either a demonstration of cluelessness as to how judicial process works, complete idiocy to think it wouldn't apply here, or utter deranged lunacy from people thinking they're THAT important to have to know all the details at the risk of someone tampering with the system.



Perhaps it would be best if people spent less time pointing fingers and crying out ignorance to their ways, and spent more time learning the ways of others.


Of course by all means decry this as another post from someone sat atop their high chair because you can't actually debate the argument. Then again, some people don't even care so much what the argument is and more just attack the person saying it and sink into a childish level of petty insults and an interstellar version of classroom bullying.


And yet you wonder why the Federal Judicial system won't release details of the investigation to you that haven't been given to the public.


I don't expect to recieve every detail personally. I'm not that stupid nor that arrogant. However, the blatent disregard and disrespect for Tribal law exhibited by the Federation evidences that they have no interest in cooperating with the Republic in this matter.
Argoist Zxim
Terraprobe Dynamics
#98 - 2013-04-30 00:04:21 UTC
Also remember: If this is considered an act of terrorism, Intelligence agencies will be involved.

I can almost guarantee that there are Republic intelligence people involved in the questioning. They are probably just as interested in keeping things under wraps (for now) as Federal intelligence until there is something to work with (which is why no one has heard about their involvement). I'm pretty sure they would rather make sure, if this guy is connected to any organizations, that they can head off any more attacks. Makes more sense than making the perp an example and lose that intel.

To be honest, there will probably be a show trial to satisfy Gallente jurisprudence, and then the perp will probably be quietly passed off to Republic intelligence for further interrogation.
Adreena Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe
#99 - 2013-04-30 00:13:44 UTC
Argoist Zxim wrote:
[...] If [...] almost [...] probably [...] pretty sure they would rather [...] probably [...] probably [...]


I could say with almost uncertainty that we may not know ****. Maybe.

...................\o\ /o/...................

Argoist Zxim
Terraprobe Dynamics
#100 - 2013-04-30 00:33:48 UTC
Adreena Madeveda wrote:


I could say with almost uncertainty that we may not know ****. Maybe.


You are probably right. I'm speculating. But I am working off of what I know about intelligence agencies. They aren't exactly transparent organizations.