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(Odyssey) Exploration Site Mechanics

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Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
#201 - 2013-04-29 13:20:37 UTC
The old exploration needed a revamp.
I'm not against these minigames (as long as I can divide my attention between them and my d-scan/local); They might get old but they give you something to do rather than looking at a can for five minutes.

What I don't like at all about the new system is the vanishing loot. That is so against everything else in EVE! Try that on PVP ships!

I like to do my exploration solo. It's something to do if my buddies aren't online or if I don't have a lot of time myself. (which sadly happens quite a lot). I'm sure ther are a lot of players like that. In a group I do other stuff designed to do in a group.
Now I have the feeling of being punished for doing it alone. Even if I collect the same amount as before from the few cans I can collect, the new system gives you the psychological feeling of loss instead of gain.

I wouldn't mind chasing after them and exposing myself more to ganking or ninja looting. That's part of the fun! But those cans disappearing in front of me makes exploration a frustrating experience.

Please, CCP don't make this small but fun part of EVE a frustrating experience.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#202 - 2013-04-29 13:27:30 UTC
Mining mechanics should be more strategy based and not reaction based. It's all about planning where to drill and what to dig up. I hated it back in ELITE when you shot up a asteroid and then had to hunt down all the pieces flying off, losing track of most of them in the process.

Similar, I think Archaeology should be about rummaging through ruins for hints and puzzle pieces until you have enough to put a map together that allows you to find some valuable cache.

Really, the more I think about the jettisoning of random bit you collect, the less I like it. Maybe try something more sophisticated?

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#203 - 2013-04-29 13:31:36 UTC
I wouldn't mind a mini game for archaeology that is similar to the probing system in ME2. Say taking reads of a object in order to triangulate a hit on something that is hidden inside. Ofc with any minigame in Eve it will be a bit difficult to do the minigame while spamming D-scan and monitoring potential threats.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
CCP Bayesian
#204 - 2013-04-29 13:53:41 UTC
Nicen Jehr wrote:
the hate, it burns! Looking forward to trying this out.

will our hacking and archeology skills be modified?
will we still have to be within 2500m of the cans to open them?
will the cans appear on overview?


Team Superfriends are all about the skills for Exploration but as far as I'm aware they aren't about to change the core skills. We might see some new ones though but I'll let them fill in the details.

Currently we are experimenting with the interaction range for the scattered cans. You'll definitely still need to be close to start the hacking and going out of range will fail the attempt and that will stay with the same interaction distances that the modules have right now.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#205 - 2013-04-29 13:54:23 UTC
Ive seen the names "Relic" "Data" "Gas" and "Ore" mentioned to describe the new sites. But what about the "unknown" category? Will sites that have wormholes or combat be getting new names?

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#206 - 2013-04-29 13:59:19 UTC
Holy crapola a couple devs with balls that will answer questions and admit a few small mistakes like not having a blog out in time??? I don't like the loot spew mechanic but the openness is refreshing. The mini-game is ok...I tend to like anything that keeps people's eyes off of local and d-scan so they don't notice the Pilgrim decloaking.

All mechanics aside, will the loot still be the same for mag sites or is there more valuable stuff being added to the drop tables? I see there are many new decriptors so radar is probably still solid income. Unless something worthwhile is added to the mags they will remain the bottom of the barrel for exploration regardless of what system you find them in. No mini-game is going to attract more people to sites that are a waste of time in comparison to almost every other activity in the game.
CCP Bayesian
#207 - 2013-04-29 13:59:25 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Prototype = "stated intent" apparently


Why else would you prototype something and introduce that mechanic into the game? Until CCP Bayesian clarified the situation, it appeared to me that they were prototyping this, testing with exploration, with the intent of moving the mechanic to mining in a later expansion, since changing how a hacking container spawns might be easier than changing how asteroids spawn.

Remember, if you worry about being too paranoid, you're not paranoid enough.


I actually did a presentation about this at Fanfest, hopefully it'll be up on the Twitch site at some point soon if it isn't already. IIRC you can watch the SD stream of it for free.

Essentially though prototyping an idea is no guarantee it will go anywhere. For every good idea we move forward with there are a pile of terrible ones that sounded interesting but ultimately didn't work out for one reason or another. What they do let us do is find good ideas that may not have worked in one setting but did work so we have lots of things to draw on in the future.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#208 - 2013-04-29 14:02:26 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Holy crapola a couple devs with balls that will answer questions and admit a few small mistakes like not having a blog out in time??? I don't like the loot spew mechanic but the openness is refreshing. The mini-game is ok...I tend to like anything that keeps people's eyes off of local and d-scan so they don't notice the Pilgrim decloaking.

All mechanics aside, will the loot still be the same for mag sites or is there more valuable stuff being added to the drop tables? I see there are many new decriptors so radar is probably still solid income. Unless something worthwhile is added to the mags they will remain the bottom of the barrel for exploration regardless of what system you find them in. No mini-game is going to attract more people to sites that are a waste of time in comparison to almost every other activity in the game.


Thanks, one of the key things for me at least is a lot of sensible interaction with you guys.

We're rebalancing the sites and updating loot tables. It's not something I'm directly involved in deciding though so I'll let the others talk about it. At the moment we're probably going to do one blog about the mechanics and another about the rebalancing.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#209 - 2013-04-29 14:06:16 UTC
Arin Archer wrote:
... They have ZERO to do while you go about your business of discovering and hacking the site. The only reason they're there is to wait for that magical 30 seconds when the loot explodes so they can click like mad. Who wants to do that? ...

It really makes no sense for a second pilot to be there. CCP, please reconsider this forced arcade game mechanic that makes no sense when everything else, most importantly your solo player base, is taken into account...



That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion.
Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :)
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-04-29 14:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense.

The hacking minigame is cool. I like it, it's better than just hitting a module.

However past that... it just seems dumb. It's not going to encourage group play, it's just going to require explorers to drag an alt yet again.

There were other ways to really make exploration something cool.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Asticus Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2013-04-29 14:15:33 UTC
Are the minigames for low/null/WH going be long enough to compensate for the current risk of being probed down/jumped on while fighting the current rats/flying around the can?

Because lowsec exploring is currently one of the very few PvE activities that actually give increased reward to compensate for the risk, so if the minigame is short it will just be highsec exploring with bigger rewards if you can fly a Cover Ops Frigate.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#212 - 2013-04-29 14:17:42 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Mis'tral wrote:
So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you?
From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).

If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items?


It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.

We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.


From my experience exploration as always been more geared torwards solo capsuleers and it works so why change this? Arent lvl4 missions the thing you want to make more of a group activity!

Oderint Dum Metuant
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-04-29 14:23:16 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Mis'tral wrote:
So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you?
From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).

If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items?


It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.

We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.


From my experience exploration as always been more geared torwards solo capsuleers and it works so why change this? Arent lvl4 missions the thing you want to make more of a group activity!



Exactly. Exploration should be 90% solo, and the largers finds something on a group scale.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
CCP Bayesian
#214 - 2013-04-29 14:24:37 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:
That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion.
Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :)


Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#215 - 2013-04-29 14:32:35 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion.
Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :)


Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.


Then encourage that, however making some sort of arbitrary mechanic to force it just makes it terrible.

It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#216 - 2013-04-29 14:35:44 UTC
Steijn wrote:
The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.

a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.

b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.

c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.

IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.

So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt.

A) Probably not too bad for me

B) This is me, I think I have about 1/6(or less) of my screen that shows actually space, the rest is Overview/Chats/Fleet window/Drone Window/CargoHold/Locked Targets/HUD, If I'm in LS/NS/WH then add Directional Scanner to this list

C) Depends on what you call zoomed out, My Normal view is Camera at what ever my Lock Range is +5km(basically so that in that sliver of screen that can see space I can see as much as possible and still keep some form of situational awareness
(so this is most likely between about 30km and 130km depending on ship being used)
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#217 - 2013-04-29 14:36:06 UTC
Thanks for the updates CCP Bayesian

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Ember Saint
Time-Lost Proto-Drake
#218 - 2013-04-29 14:37:27 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now.

can you drag little cans faster in two windows?
blink alt
Doomheim
#219 - 2013-04-29 14:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: blink alt
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now.


While I admit I am starting to think of ways I could rig things up is isBoxer to go get all the cans with an army of herons. However, if doing the professional solo after the expansion is anywhere near on par with how it is now isk wise I honestly will start to try to get people to group explore. Sure I could come up with this perfect profile that makes it easy to multibox and keep all the isk for myself but that seems like too much work. Now on the other hand, if a professional site is dropping on average the same as it is now but you need to grab ALL the cans to get the same isk you would of got before then I think that will push me over the edge and just multibox it and screw being social because I want the iskies!

Ember Saint wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now.

can you drag little cans faster in two windows?


So long as the cans show up in the overview and that if you click the can in the overview it will drag it to your cargo then all you need is some repeater regions and some video feeds and bam it is easy as pie.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#220 - 2013-04-29 14:40:53 UTC
So am I reading this right? Exploration will now result in a loot Pinata of cans that we have to run around and grab??? And they may disappear very quickly? I sure hope I am missing something. This is not what you should be spending your development time on.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie