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Why are people scanning based on 2D planes, rather than 3D spaces?

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Author
Angelo Schilling
Knights of the Protectorate
#1 - 2013-04-27 16:16:47 UTC
So it's bothered me since the day I first learned about scanning that despite the anomalies being spawned in a 3-dimensional space, people use scanner-probe formations which are 100% 2-dimensional in their efficacy.

Let me explain, in case you're not following me:
Triangulation works based intersecting vectors, so it's at work here- but not really apparent on the surface; you can think of all the overlapping areas between multiple scanner probes as *many* individual points, which are all definable by vectors originating at the probes themselves- this is why 1 probe will give you a general direction and intensity/inversely-proportional noise (the relative size of the red bubble), and 2 will give you a ring (the overlapping limits of their respective signature-bubbles) which is of course a plane, while it takes at least 3 to form a set of points (the not-fully-scanned red-dot signature), rather than just vectors and planes.

Now, the way you maximize a signature is by minimizing the number of possible vectors from each source probe, while maximizing the number of probes giving vectors.

Likewise, this *should* mean that sitting a single probe in the middle, right *on top* of the scanned signature actually increases noise, but people seem to do this anyways.

What Everyone Does:

Everyone uses probes which all lie on the same plane- most of the time, the "horizontal" plane, with horizontal being defined by the celestial bodies' angle of rotation.

This neglects entirely the added benefit of placing probes 'above' and 'below' the point you're trying to define- the signature.
I've always used a square set of probes on the 'horizontal' plane, with one probe above and one probe below; it gives you a kind of double-pyramid shape, with 2 4-sided pyramids joined at the base.

Since I can't directly upload a picture and am loathe to make an imgur account just for this, I'll post a picture if you guys want one, showing the formation I'm talking about.

If you understand what I'm saying, please- explain to me why people do this!
EVEN CCP DID IT AT FANFEST. AAARRRRGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
/rant
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#2 - 2013-04-27 17:10:50 UTC
Not everyone does.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Haulie Berry
#3 - 2013-04-27 17:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Because it actually works better in terms of efficacy:effort ratio once you account for the additional effort of dealing with more probes.

With max scanning skills, in an unbonused ship I only ever need up/down probes for the weakest signals The center probe has no or negligible detrimental effect, and makes it easier to aim and distribute the probe formation, which provides far more utility than adhering to the mathematical ideal for triangulation. I've never found any particular formation to appreciably decrease scan time (by which I mean, "allows me to pinpoint at a higher probe radius setting").

Or, in other words: Scanning is easy enough that optimizing it is a complete waste of time.

Additionally: Signatures are positioned very predictably within a ~4 AU radius sphere from a planet. This means that the actual position of signatures as distributed throughout a system is also extremely "horizontal" - you'll never find one, e.g., 12 AU above the system's "plane" - so when you're scouting the system (as opposed to trying to pinpoint), any up/down probes are mostly viewing space that is guaranteed to be empty.

I would imagine this habit will change with the release of pre-made formations, as that will substantially adjust the effort level.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#4 - 2013-04-27 18:22:25 UTC
I always use a 5th Probe at a vertical orientation.

Also, how can you personally see what others are doing ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2013-04-27 19:36:10 UTC
Shrug. I like a 7 probe formation. I'll like it even better once it poops out all at once and snaps to formation; setup does take time but it consistently allows me to skip bands no matter what.

Edit: why is this in science and industry?
Dave Stark
#6 - 2013-04-27 19:48:58 UTC
gotta admit, the preset formation did bug me at fanfest.

unless i can set my own preset, they wasted their time with that feature giving me a preset i don't want to use because it's terrible.
Skorpynekomimi
#7 - 2013-04-27 21:41:30 UTC
Because star systems generally ARE on a flat-ish plane. It's called the ecliptic. Look it up.

Economic PVP

Haulie Berry
#8 - 2013-04-27 22:31:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
gotta admit, the preset formation did bug me at fanfest.

unless i can set my own preset, they wasted their time with that feature giving me a preset i don't want to use because it's terrible.


There were two, one for "sweeping" a system (the one they showed) and another for pinpointing. I'm pretty sure the other is going to be more like what you would want to use, although I kind of doubt I would have any particular difficulty pinpointing most sites with the circular orientation, either.
Dave Stark
#9 - 2013-04-27 22:36:04 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
gotta admit, the preset formation did bug me at fanfest.

unless i can set my own preset, they wasted their time with that feature giving me a preset i don't want to use because it's terrible.


There were two, one for "sweeping" a system (the one they showed) and another for pinpointing. I'm pretty sure the other is going to be more like what you would want to use, although I kind of doubt I would have any particular difficulty pinpointing most sites with the circular orientation, either.


yeah they did say there were more than 1 preset, would have been nice if they showed them to us.
Angelo Schilling
Knights of the Protectorate
#10 - 2013-04-28 02:00:30 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Because star systems generally ARE on a flat-ish plane. It's called the ecliptic. Look it up.


This answer would only be relevant if people scanned down the entire system at once, and thus needed to maximize their x-axis coverage... Since you only scan around 1 planet at-a-time, this is entirely irrelevant.
Haulie Berry
#11 - 2013-04-28 02:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Angelo Schilling wrote:
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Because star systems generally ARE on a flat-ish plane. It's called the ecliptic. Look it up.


This answer would only be relevant if people scanned down the entire system at once, and thus needed to maximize their x-axis coverage... Since you only scan around 1 planet at-a-time, this is entirely irrelevant.



Not really. If I'm not in a T3/covops/something else onto which I have shoehorned an expanded launcher, I'm starting out with a scan that covers as much of the system as possible. First and foremost, I want to know how many are in the system, and their IDs. I do not need up/downs to do this, and there is a REALLY good chance there will not be anything there (or a really uninspiring list of IDs). If there IS something in the system I feel like scanning down, I'm almost never going to need up/down probes (and, in actual fact, if I *do* need up/down probes, it's not a site I'm interested in anyway - nothing good spawns at those signal strengths).

So, given that:

A. In any given system, I probably won't bother scanning down anything at all. Deploying a full formation is a waste of time more often than not - I'll just be recalling them after the first scan.
B. Anything I do want to scan down can be scanned down with the same horizontal distribution that facilitates determining (A).
C. It's unlikely that vertical probes would even save me a scanning step in most cases. At best, it might save me one.

Why, exactly, do I want to adhere to the mathematical ideal, here? What benefit will it provide me? Will it save me time? No. Will it make me a more successful explorer? No. Will it make me the prettiest gal at the pedantic-probers party? Probably. Lol
Angelo Schilling
Knights of the Protectorate
#12 - 2013-04-28 07:22:56 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:

Not really. If I'm not in a T3/covops/something else onto which I have shoehorned an expanded launcher, I'm starting out with a scan that covers as much of the system as possible. First and foremost, I want to know how many are in the system, and their IDs. I do not need up/downs to do this, and there is a REALLY good chance there will not be anything there (or a really uninspiring list of IDs). If there IS something in the system I feel like scanning down, I'm almost never going to need up/down probes (and, in actual fact, if I *do* need up/down probes, it's not a site I'm interested in anyway - nothing good spawns at those signal strengths).

So, given that:

A. In any given system, I probably won't bother scanning down anything at all. Deploying a full formation is a waste of time more often than not - I'll just be recalling them after the first scan.
B. Anything I do want to scan down can be scanned down with the same horizontal distribution that facilitates determining (A).
C. It's unlikely that vertical probes would even save me a scanning step in most cases. At best, it might save me one.

Why, exactly, do I want to adhere to the mathematical ideal, here? What benefit will it provide me? Will it save me time? No. Will it make me a more successful explorer? No. Will it make me the prettiest gal at the pedantic-probers party? Probably. Lol


Okay, so the last part is essentially the answer I've been *asking* for (i.e. "why don't people use the up/down probes?"). Now I get that you're all basically saying it gives you no real benefit because probing is already incredibly forgiving, so thank you.
Bloody Wench
#13 - 2013-04-28 07:53:47 UTC
12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, 1 above 1 below the plane the clock face makes.

It's not rocket science.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-04-29 01:50:24 UTC
I run em in a 4-probe square formation. Always have, always will I guess. But I would like an easier system for manipulating the formation size along with the scan radius.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-04-29 01:51:22 UTC
Most things are in or near the ecliptic plane, so it makes sense to focus your efforts in that orientation. Also, once it comes to triangulating a signal, your probes only need to be arranged relative to your target. It doesn't matter if they are above it or next to it.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#16 - 2013-04-29 03:13:29 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, 1 above 1 below the plane the clock face makes.

It's not rocket science.

This is basically the 6 Probe version of what I run for 7 Probes, I have an extra in the centre.

Orgin, Left, Right, Back, Front, Up, Down, it's really quick to setup even without formations, Launch Probes, and then drag one of each of the arrows to the edge of the scan sphere
Bloody Wench
#17 - 2013-04-29 04:04:35 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, 1 above 1 below the plane the clock face makes.

It's not rocket science.

This is basically the 6 Probe version of what I run for 7 Probes, I have an extra in the centre.

Orgin, Left, Right, Back, Front, Up, Down, it's really quick to setup even without formations, Launch Probes, and then drag one of each of the arrows to the edge of the scan sphere



Yep... it takes all of 10 seconds to set up.

Not sure the centre probe in your config is doing you any good, it's probably not doing you any harm either, so...

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack

Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#18 - 2013-04-29 04:33:26 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, 1 above 1 below the plane the clock face makes.

It's not rocket science.

This is basically the 6 Probe version of what I run for 7 Probes, I have an extra in the centre.

Orgin, Left, Right, Back, Front, Up, Down, it's really quick to setup even without formations, Launch Probes, and then drag one of each of the arrows to the edge of the scan sphere



Yep... it takes all of 10 seconds to set up.

Not sure the centre probe in your config is doing you any good, it's probably not doing you any harm either, so...

I originally had it in their before the introduction of the probe connecting lines, it was an easy way to tell the centre of your formation when trying to centre the formation on the site to scan it.

From what I understand of the Mechanics of the Eve System, it uses the Best 4 Probe Results, and ignores additional probes. Each probe can only tell how far away a site is, but not what direction. Having the centre one in there, basically gives an extra probe to choose from, regardless of which other the probes are around it. and if you are centring your formation on the site then the centre probe is actually most likely to be one of the best results as it is most likely to be the closest to the site.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2013-04-29 05:48:35 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
From what I understand of the Mechanics of the Eve System, it uses the Best 4 Probe Results, and ignores additional probes. Each probe can only tell how far away a site is, but not what direction. Having the centre one in there, basically gives an extra probe to choose from, regardless of which other the probes are around it. and if you are centring your formation on the site then the centre probe is actually most likely to be one of the best results as it is most likely to be the closest to the site.


Incarna patch notes: "All probes can now contribute to a scan result, as opposed to the previous limit of four."
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2013-04-29 13:04:52 UTC
There's two presets in Odyssey currently: one is seven arranged in a plane, for doing an initial sweep over as much of the system as possible, while the other is a gunstar for pinpointing individual signatures.
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