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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

First post
Author
Commander Spurty
#21 - 2013-04-29 12:10:52 UTC
Hmm time to get my sisi instance up and running again then

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And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#22 - 2013-04-29 12:26:37 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'd highly recommend trying this out on the test server once it's available there, and posting feedback in the test server forum. Whether or not it's "too fast" can only really be judged by experienced users (ie, you lot) trying it and seeing where the balance falls Smile


Is there a ETA on when it will hit test? I know its a bit early to know for sure, but a range would be nice.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#23 - 2013-04-29 12:48:59 UTC
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-04-29 12:59:32 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.

no, theyre not since the removed bonus is being added to the astro skill. why do people not get this...

There is no Bob.

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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-04-29 13:12:15 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2013-04-29 13:14:32 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Will certainly test this out on the server. My only concern is that scanning has been dumbed down now, Would it be possible to confirm whether this is the case? Thanks


I wouldn't say so, no, but I think that "dumbed down" is a horrible, ugly phrase with no consistent usage or standards, so I can't guarantee that other people won't disagree with me Smile
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2013-04-29 13:17:31 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2013-04-29 13:19:51 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


Why not remove PVE first? It's more tedious, repetitive and boring, and does not improve the overall game experience.

.

Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#29 - 2013-04-29 13:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
Tbh ship scanning was already too fast.

Notice how noone uses proper sniper fleets or setups anymore?

I think scanning PVE content needed speeding up by a sliding scale of 'time vs reward' - saving probe formations etc helps solve this....
PVP scanning needed more 'errors' or counter-scanning mechanics in order to slow it down if for example you're scanning down a sniper fleet you shouldn't be able to land at 0km on them every 60 seconds.

That fairly useless target breaker module would be a good candidate for an additional anti-scanning role if you ask me. Cheers.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2013-04-29 13:23:00 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Tbh ship scanning was already too fast.

Notice how noone uses proper sniper fleets or setups anymore?

I think scanning PVE content needed speeding up by a sliding scale of 'time vs reward'. PVP scanning needed more 'errors' or counter-scanning mechanics in order to slow it down if for example you're in a sniper fleet.

That fairly useless target breaker module would be a good candidate for an additional anti-scanning role if you ask me. Cheers.


We need to do something about the interaction between probes and sniper fleets, yes.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#31 - 2013-04-29 13:24:16 UTC
gah you caught me pre-edit! hehe
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#32 - 2013-04-29 13:24:22 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.

no, theyre not since the removed bonus is being added to the astro skill. why do people not get this...

Probably because the information isn't readily available and hasn't even been posted in a dev blog yet.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#33 - 2013-04-29 13:32:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Tbh ship scanning was already too fast.

Notice how noone uses proper sniper fleets or setups anymore?

I think scanning PVE content needed speeding up by a sliding scale of 'time vs reward'. PVP scanning needed more 'errors' or counter-scanning mechanics in order to slow it down if for example you're in a sniper fleet.

That fairly useless target breaker module would be a good candidate for an additional anti-scanning role if you ask me. Cheers.


We need to do something about the interaction between probes and sniper fleets, yes.



well now there is mjd why not get rid of on grid warping?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#34 - 2013-04-29 13:35:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Tbh ship scanning was already too fast.

Notice how noone uses proper sniper fleets or setups anymore?

I think scanning PVE content needed speeding up by a sliding scale of 'time vs reward'. PVP scanning needed more 'errors' or counter-scanning mechanics in order to slow it down if for example you're in a sniper fleet.

That fairly useless target breaker module would be a good candidate for an additional anti-scanning role if you ask me. Cheers.


We need to do something about the interaction between probes and sniper fleets, yes.


Combat scanning for PvP would be considerably slowed down if scanning a ship only enabled warping to/bookmarking the center of the grid that ship is on, instead of the ship itself.

This would considerably increase the value of covops cloaks or interdictors as well, especially if directly warping to fleet members remains possible, and why shouldn't it.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#35 - 2013-04-29 13:39:06 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".


I approve of this sort of reply! Does this mean we can get rid of d-scan too?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#36 - 2013-04-29 13:48:07 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".


I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Making it unnecessarily difficult is silly but making it take effort, time and experience is NOT silly. Scanning as a profession that needs to be "mastered" and requires effort is good, automated dumb **** for non-effort easy mode clowns is terrible and even contemplating it as an option is so terrible there's seriously no words for it. If you have any plans in that regard (and perhaps for other stuff in EVE too) just say so now and save me the bother of logging in to add skills.

Max Teranous
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#37 - 2013-04-29 13:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Teranous
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Tbh ship scanning was already too fast.

Notice how noone uses proper sniper fleets or setups anymore?

I think scanning PVE content needed speeding up by a sliding scale of 'time vs reward'. PVP scanning needed more 'errors' or counter-scanning mechanics in order to slow it down if for example you're in a sniper fleet.

That fairly useless target breaker module would be a good candidate for an additional anti-scanning role if you ask me. Cheers.


We need to do something about the interaction between probes and sniper fleets, yes.


1) Goto client code
2) Find the variable minimumWarpDistance = 150 km
3) Change to minimumWarpDistance = 350 km
4) Goto the pub

Sorted !
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2013-04-29 13:58:11 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I approve of this sort of reply! Does this mean we can get rid of d-scan too?


We'd like to look at how we can overhaul/replace/whatever d-scanning at some point, as it's an important tool and we're cautiously optimistic that we can do something better with it. No timescale though.


Vilnius Zar wrote:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Making it unnecessarily difficult is silly but making it take effort, time and experience is NOT silly. Scanning as a profession that needs to be "mastered" and requires effort is good, automated dumb **** for non-effort easy mode clowns is terrible and even contemplating it as an option is so terrible there's seriously no words for it. If you have any plans in that regard (and perhaps for other stuff in EVE too) just say so now and save me the bother of logging in to add skills.


So... I kinda agree, but I kinda disagree. The bits of difficulty in the probing system where the difficulty is driven by other players are really interesting. The bits of difficulty where you're essentially playing a single-player game against the server I would say are less interesting in the context of an MMO like EVE, and divorced from their consequences to the rest of the game we'd generally lean towards cutting down that sort of difficulty, on the assumption that the time players would previously invest in that work would instead be spent interacting with other players (synchronously or asynchronously, directly or indirectly).

That's the general principle, anyway: we want people to have an edge in S&I, for example, because they've outsmarted their competition, not because they're better at using the S&I UI (which is not very efficient currently). When it comes to specific features, generally their consequences are not divorced from the rest of the game, and those consequences alter the equation so we look at them on a case-by-case basis.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2013-04-29 13:59:43 UTC
Max Teranous wrote:
1) Goto client code
2) Find the variable minimumWarpDistance = 150 km
3) Change to minimumWarpDistance = 350 km
4) Goto the pub

Sorted !


That sounds totally straightforward and I'm sure it wouldn't have any knock-on balance considerations :P

(Plus you'd just sit off-grid or yo-yo off a 1k BM, it'd slow things down somewhat but it's not obvious that it'd comprehensively solve the issue.)
Jungleland Roy
#40 - 2013-04-29 14:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jungleland Roy
Vilnius Zar wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I honestly don't understand why scanning should be made easier or faster. It's not difficult to do if your IQ is more than 70 and it's already fast enough. UI updated sure, making it easier no.


I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second - is scanning needed AT ALL in this game? Someone earlier said he's worried about probing getting "dumbed down". How much dumber can it get? It's already pretty dumb, non-challenging, non-entertaining "busy work" that only requires absolutely minimal skill.

Do we really need *manual* D-scan and *manual* probing? Are they challenging? I don't know about you, but they're not challenging to me. I can scan and probe when drunk and half-comatose. Entertaining? Again, not to me. Tedious, boring and repetitive more like. Does it improve the overall gaming experience? How can it? When it is neither challenging nor entertaining?

So, why do we need it at all?


I approve of this sort of question. Every minute that you're spending interacting with the UI is a minute you can't spend interacting with other players. There's generally a minimal amount of UI time that's needed to work with mechanics that are deep enough that they frame interesting and varied player-player interactions, but it's easy to fall into a trap of rewarding "good at using an obtuse UI" and thinking that's "interesting gameplay".


I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Making it unnecessarily difficult is silly but making it take effort, time and experience is NOT silly. Scanning as a profession that needs to be "mastered" and requires effort is good, automated dumb **** for non-effort easy mode clowns is terrible and even contemplating it as an option is so terrible there's seriously no words for it. If you have any plans in that regard (and perhaps for other stuff in EVE too) just say so now and save me the bother of logging in to add skills.



I agree totally.

Granted I'm biased becasue this is largely my profession. However scanning is a skill that should require not only in-game skills but also player skills which have to be learned and practised.

Scanning for complexes or players should be made harder to reward those who spend the time and effort to perfect this skill.

I do fully agree though that we cannot go back to the old system as all worm hole dwellers would probably quit immeadiately - but "normnal" scanning should be a difficult and challenging occupation.

Making it easier is a real step backward imo (and I'm against the new auto-launch probe system simply becasue it dumbs scanning down)

Roy

_if you could fly it before, you can fly it now. _ Read the Blog.