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(Odyssey) Exploration Site Mechanics

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#161 - 2013-04-29 09:12:43 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
exists in EVE interacting with the UI now


This isn't a good selling point, since the interaction with the UI is and has always been pretty bad.

I do appreciate the time taken to clarify and will be waiting to see how this plays out.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-04-29 09:15:28 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
(snipped...)

The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it.

Heh - my mining friend will like that his Hulk will be able to pivot and shoot lasers from his strip miners and break down the rocks into smaller and smaller pieces before the pesky alien ship arrives. Then once the last rock is gone, the belt repopulates with even a greater number of cascading and floating asteroids. And instead of a running score, the destroyed rocks will automatically be refined into minerals and instantly sold on the market at the region's current going rate, transfering the ISK to the miner's wallet.

Good job revamping and modernizing the old arcade classic "Asteroids" CCP! P

*hopes people's sarcasm meters are on.
Yaboo Sux
Doomheim
#163 - 2013-04-29 09:26:44 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though:

Quote:
Why not when announced to avoid speculation, its not as if you just made it all up at the last moment


Colourblind People
We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.

Quote:
OK, nice to know


Soloing
We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!

Quote:
Cannot predict... yeah, so stop pulling out of the ether, but come on CCP Sundwave was all wow over DTFD of the game cos he´s too stupid to arrange 5 probes (which is al you really need when you got skills or push a button to get a result, is is an instant gratification addict?


Twitch Gameplay
We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself.

Quote:
This is just a rip off of stuff from other older games like the X series and tablet based game play, get it on sisi asap and let us evaluate it and give some honest feed back
CCP Bayesian
#164 - 2013-04-29 09:36:20 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
exists in EVE interacting with the UI now


This isn't a good selling point, since the interaction with the UI is and has always been pretty bad.

I do appreciate the time taken to clarify and will be waiting to see how this plays out.


Hah, I mean more from the clicks per second, requirement to move the mouse about wildly side of things rather than the interaction design itself. We're basically not looking to make people do more than they do right now in terms of click spamming or mouse use. The actual interaction is about as simple as it gets, if you're in range you left click on the scattered can and it will take the can. You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#165 - 2013-04-29 09:44:20 UTC
Yaboo Sux, in hindsight we definitely should have had our devblogs ready to go. Letting people speculate isn't terrible and it's nice to be able to target specific concerns that people have on the forums in addressing a wider audience.

This will all be on Sisi as soon as humanly possible along with the rest of the Odyssey stuff as per normal and we're user testing the beejezus out of it internally.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Alek Row
Silent Step
#166 - 2013-04-29 09:49:42 UTC
I'm not into hacking myself, but from other games experiences, this kind of mini games usually get boring VERY fast.
For certain activities F1 still have a place despite the obvious lack of interaction.

This is one of your experiments right?
Otherwise you had put this kind of mini games in mining (LOL).
Let's just start with hacking first?
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-04-29 10:20:06 UTC
will radar and mag sites still need the codebreaker and analyser mods? because im not sure I saw them on Soundwave's fit ...
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Steijn
Quay Industries
#168 - 2013-04-29 10:31:26 UTC
The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.

a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.

b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.

c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.

IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.

So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt.
Mis'tral
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-04-29 10:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mis'tral
CCP Bayesian wrote:
The actual interaction is about as simple as it gets, if you're in range you left click on the scattered can and it will take the can. You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them.


So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you?
From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).

If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#170 - 2013-04-29 10:43:12 UTC
Steijn wrote:
The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.

a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.

b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.

c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.

IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.

So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt.


All the above! Anyone exploring in non-hisec is going to have to balance the loot grab with monitoring local/D-Scan/scanner probe results. My "empty" real estate is a patch of screen above my ship, where I can double click to change heading. The system scanner fills one side, the overview the other, the survey scanner results are over here and then there are two dozen chat windows stacked on top of each other in various combinations.

If we could use CREST, IRC or XMPP for third-party chat applications, I could save a swathe of screen real-estate while moving chat to a second screen/second computer. Here is a comparison between IRC and XMPP linked from Hacker News.

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CCP Bayesian
#171 - 2013-04-29 10:55:00 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
will radar and mag sites still need the codebreaker and analyser mods? because im not sure I saw them on Soundwave's fit ...


Yes, we were running with devhacks to just simplfy the demo. There are some new dual use modules being introduced as well.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2013-04-29 11:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Talbot
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though.


Thank you for taking the time to comment. I think everyone is looking forward to the blogs. I mean no disrespect in noting that I fear you have a hard sell coming.

CCP Bayesian wrote:
Colourblind People
We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.


Of interest, I hope resolution and screen size limitations for laptops in particular and older machines have been considered when attempting to identify and click upon the loot objects as well?

CCP Bayesian wrote:
Soloing
We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!


Perhaps not literally. However, per the keynote address it will be improbable for one peron to net all of the potential rewards due to an intentional choice in design. By the very nature of the mechanic a lone pilot's satisfaction in accomplishing the task at hand will be dminished as they will feel like they are missing out on something perhaps even better than they managed to ... "nab" from the vaccum.

CCP Bayesian wrote:
Twitch Gameplay
We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself.


The fact that it is such a radical departure from the mechanics in the rest of EVE is at the core of many posters’ expressed issues with the new system. As such does it have a place in game when exiting mechanics could be adjusted to accomplish similar ends? Rather than as a natural extension of play and piloting your ship it clashes with everything else in game entirely too much.

And I am sorry. I mean no offense. But the fact this evolved from a prototype mining mini-game actually frightens me.

Georgina Parmala wrote:

Multiplayer mining:

Asteroids now need to be blown up first, spawning mineable mini-rocks to yield the resources. The resulting rocks despawn too quickly to get them all if you dock up to reship. The EHP of the roid requires a battlecruiser shooting it for as long as a Hulk takes to mine up the resulting rock bits.

Better yet, why don't we make Strip miners suck some crazy cap, so as to require energy transfers from external sources to get all the rocks before they vanish.

Coincidentally, all mining fleets are now made up of equal parts PvP-ready combat ships and Mining Barges with logi support.

But getting a bunch of people who are not mining to tag along and shoot rocks, just to do efficient mining, is not a positive change to mining. Neither is dragging a clickfest looter along with you for exploration.

If you think waiting for a module cycle is boring, how do you feel about sitting idle in the site, waiting for your buddy to come over however many jumps?


.... Shocked .... Lol
CCP Bayesian
#173 - 2013-04-29 11:02:26 UTC
Mis'tral wrote:
So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you?
From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).

If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items?


It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.

We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#174 - 2013-04-29 11:08:51 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Soloing
We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!


Perhaps not literally. However, per the keynote address it will be improbable for one peron to net all of the potential rewards due to an intentional choice in design. By the very nature of the mechanic a lone pilot's satisfaction in accomplishing the task at hand will be dminished as they will feel like they are missing out on something perhaps even better than they managed to ... "nab" from the vaccum.

Which may be a good thing. Maybe the explorer thinks "hmm, maybe it's more fun if I bring someone along!" instead of "if I bring someone along, I will have only half the profit :S"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2013-04-29 11:09:04 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
I'm not into hacking myself, but from other games experiences, this kind of mini games usually get boring VERY fast.
For certain activities F1 still have a place despite the obvious lack of interaction.

This is one of your experiments right?
Otherwise you had put this kind of mini games in mining (LOL).
Let's just start with hacking first?






It can't possibly be as boring as what we have now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#176 - 2013-04-29 11:10:34 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.


Will the containers in question be visible on the overview?

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Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#177 - 2013-04-29 11:15:03 UTC
I like to think I am an enterprising capsuler so when I see this new system I think to myself "how do I make it better?" For example I scan down a wreck.

First, I recon the area to ensure no one is around. I then attached my wire rope net capable of holding up to 25 m3 (or more after all I am in space right?) to encompass the door to be hacked. Let's call this net the wicket keeper or catcher's glove.

Second, I want to be within 5000m to initiate the code break but I want to be cloaked so no one that stumbles upon me and lock on.

Third, and after the foolishness of figuring out how to open the door, the hatch opens and all the goodies fly out into the net. But wait! The force of the decompression has detached the net from the ship! No problem, it is still all bundled together. I'll just tractor it in.

BTW, why exactly is all the loot piled up in the hallway with the airlock?

How do we translate that into an EVE mechanic. There are new modules to come soooo, one of these new mods could be a net. A skill will have to be associated with it of course. Let's say without the mod you might obtain 15-20% of the loot because it is flying all over the place. With the mod and lvl1 skill you slow down the expansion and increase the time to capture the loot. Say 20-30% increase in loot recovery. Lvl 2 could be 30-40%, lvl3-40-50%, lvl4 50-60% lvl5 60-75% (I am just making this up ok!?!)

The point is, if we are playing catch the firefly then lets us train to increase the chances of obtaining most if not all the loot. I know a lot of EVE requires one to suspend disbelief but explosive decompression with all the loot right next to the airlock? And what if the vessel has already decompressed? Hmmm?



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blink alt
Doomheim
#178 - 2013-04-29 11:16:40 UTC
I really hope with all the upcoming exploration changes that we will also see some changes in respect to loot variance. I would have to say the most fruhstrating aspect of the current professional sites is that they can range from zero isk to one hundered million. While I do apprecaite some variance I really do hope the gap becomes less.

Also, can I pray that perhaps high sec mags might have some better value?
La'Krul
HolyTrident
Tactical Narcotics Team
#179 - 2013-04-29 11:20:56 UTC
Sorry to pre-judge but it looks like garbage. There really wasn't much wrong with exploration anyway, so they'll probably ruin it now instead of fixing null or something useful. As someone who has all probe skills at V and salvager, analyzer, codebreaker at V, I really won't be too happy if a whole load of new probing and module skills are released on the back of this junk.

A mini-game, I mean seriously, WTF!
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#180 - 2013-04-29 11:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
I am particularly unimpressed by the stated intention of making mining work the same way.

IMHO this is gimmick gameplay, not good gameplay. These mini-game gimmicks will grow old very quickly as they have in other games, to the point where the characters from Mass Effect joke about the mini games when breaking into the Shadow Broker's lair (DLC for Mass Effect 2) and the minigames were removed entirely in Mass Effect 3.

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