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If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#1 - 2013-04-29 04:35:24 UTC
It might be OUR OWN FAULT.

There was a time and place when industry thrived in null-sec. That place saw many many more outposts built than other places.

What were they doing right, and what might we be doing wrong?

8 letters:

NRDS .... NBSI

Don't get me wrong... I love NBSI. Every null or lowsec corp I joined was NBSI. But I also failed to be a profitable null-sec industrialist, multiple times. It was ok, though because I got good fights. I'd make that same trade-off again.

But I have to wonder if the problem is us, and we're just asking CCP to "fix" what we broke.

Opinions invited. I have no deep conviction on this, I just thought of it and am throwing it out there for discussion.
Agnar Volta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-04-29 04:49:55 UTC
This tread again?

Let's go over the arguments one more time:

Null doesn't have all the slots it need, refining sucks, it's too dangerous, and the profits from moons is so high that you can import all the stuff for better prices then manufacturing. Any of those middle east oil exporting countries will serve as a good example.

Next expansion will bring some other resources, more slots and will nerf moon income a bit, maybe, not sure yet how the meta will settle.

So they will be more like Russia, still a big oil exporter, with some production here and there but mostly a barren empty land full of bored people doing silly things when they drink too much.
Ryu Ibarazaki
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-04-29 04:58:32 UTC
Sigh. I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Come on OP, don't drag us thru this again.
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-04-29 04:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: C DeLeon
It's not our fault. A proper industrialist is looking for the highest possible income with lowest possible expenditure (including time, effort, calculated risk, logistical diffculties and market demands) to maximize his profit. There is just no sane reason to bring out the business from highsec. If there would be more ways to find an edge on the market or in the process of manufacturing I bet most serious industrialists would bring out their business and looking for deals with low/null entities if they don't have already one. But there isn't.

If CCP want to buff low/null industry without nerfing highsec to the ground they have to add new ways, features, new levels to the low/null industry without touching the highsec industry. I hope with the theme "space colonization" they want to work towards a similar goal.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#5 - 2013-04-29 05:17:06 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
There was a time and place when industry thrived in null-sec. That place saw many many more outposts built than other places.



Building outposts has actually very little to do with doing industry in Nullsec.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#6 - 2013-04-29 05:18:32 UTC
Ryu Ibarazaki wrote:
Sigh. I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Come on OP, don't drag us thru this again.


and here I thought I had an original thought.

oh, well. Didn't know it had been debated to death, (if that's the case).
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-04-29 05:22:26 UTC
post with your main
dark heartt
#8 - 2013-04-29 05:23:33 UTC
It really is the case. A quick search would have told you that.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#9 - 2013-04-29 05:31:26 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
It really is the case. A quick search would have told you that.


But when you're convinced you're a unique snowflake, it doesn't occur to contemplate similarities. Lol
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#10 - 2013-04-29 05:34:22 UTC
terzho wrote:
post with your main


look at my killboard, or my employment history. This *is* my main.

I've just been inactive (forums and game) recently due to way too many people throwing money at me in real life.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-04-29 06:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
can you tell me how we managed to reduce the number of slots in all of nullsec to a miniscule fraction of hisec's capacity through sandbox magic

because well you can't sandbox your way around hard mechanics limitations

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Dave Stark
#12 - 2013-04-29 06:11:46 UTC
how does nrds or nbsi change what ores are in null sec grav sites?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-29 06:14:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
how does nrds or nbsi change what ores are in null sec grav sites?


sandbox magic apparently

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#14 - 2013-04-29 06:41:20 UTC
Andski wrote:
can you tell me how we managed to reduce the number of slots in all of nullsec to a miniscule fraction of hisec's capacity through sandbox magic

because well you can't sandbox your way around hard mechanics limitations


Like I said in my OP, I have no deep conviction that my OP is right. Yours is a good point.

I imagine the NRDS crowd coveted more slots, too.

Heck, I'm sure high-sec covets more research slots.

Coveting is an essential part of Eve.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#15 - 2013-04-29 06:44:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
how does nrds or nbsi change what ores are in null sec grav sites?


Heck, much of the heyday of NRDS industrialism was when mining was done in BELTS.

Which might just be a cute way of me saying, uhhh I dunno. What?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2013-04-29 11:42:38 UTC
Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2013-04-29 11:54:49 UTC
The only time when 0.0 had good industry was back when the population was so low we had next to no demand for ships/mods/ammo ect. Fast forward to today and we find that having less slots in all of 0.0 than a single high sec system means industry simply cannot happen out in null.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-04-29 12:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.


Could you please elaborate on that? I don't realize the link between the two things. I mean, why an increase in moon minerals price would stop nullsec industrialists?

Instead I would say (perhaps naively) that the ease of logistics (jump freighters and stuff) killed nullsec industry, since it's far easier to produce in highsec (where lowend ores coming from afk mining are abundant) and move stuff in 0.0 with those overpowered mega caravans than it is to produce locally, with the chronic lack of lowend ores.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#19 - 2013-04-29 12:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Camios wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.


Could you please elaborate on that? I don't realize the link between the two things. I mean, why an increase in moon minerals price would stop nullsec industrialists?

Instead I would say (perhaps naively) that the ease of logistics (jump freighters and stuff) killed nullsec industry, since it's far easier to produce in highsec (where lowend ores coming from afk mining are abundant) and move stuff in 0.0 with those overpowered mega caravans than it is to produce locally, with the chronic lack of lowend ores.



Prior to that point, Alliance income was multi-faceted, with collectively owned t2 BPOs and 0.0 ratting/mining (e.g. corp and refinery taxes) at its core. Since most t2 production was used internally to the alliance, it made sense do so at least some of the production in 0.0. Ratting and mining also meant a large portion of the low end (from refined loot) and high end (from mining) minerals were already in place.

After those changes not only did t2 become WAY cheaper (BPOs less profitable, internal (subsidised) alliance production less necessary), but Alliance income became largely relient on holding R64 and later Tech moons, something that industrial players were not capable of beyond the obligitory POS logistics teams (usually less than 20 people for a many thousand person alliance). At the same time, better logistics through cyno-networks, JFs, proliferation of carriers etc made moving large amounts of ships and material from Empire into 0.0 more and more feasible.

What this meant was that there was no point being an industrial alliance - PvP alliances had better income by miles and could buy everything they wanted from their newfound moongold.


I'm not convinced the changes will fix this problem, without some heavy nerfs to logistics to encourage localisation, but they certainly are a GREAT step in the right direction. I trust CCP to follow up on this.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-04-29 12:35:18 UTC
Lallante wrote:
[...]

What this meant was that there was no point being an industrial alliance - PvP alliances had better income by miles and could buy everything they wanted from their newfound moongold.

[...]


Thanks for the explanation. But without the ease of logistics we have now PVP alliances would not be able to do it...

Lallante wrote:

I'm not convinced the changes will fix this problem, without some heavy nerfs to logistics to encourage localisation


I Strongly agree.
If Odissey is not successful in restoring nullsec industry a logistics nerf could actually kill nullsec. But if Odisssey is somewhat successful in this regard, then its success could be amplified afterwards by a substantial logistics nerf.

On a side note, I would have preferred to move highsec miners in nullsec rather than moving highsec ores to nullsec, but in order for this to happen there would have needed much more work than "simply" tweaking the numbers.
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