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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#521 - 2013-04-28 14:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Regolis wrote:

Show me how it's ok on live atm that the Megathron has enough grid for 8 425mm II rails ( yes I know only 7 actually fit ) and a local armor repairer and the Apoc can't even fit 8 Megabeams.

How things are on live right now doesn't matter. How things fall out after the expac does.

As for how things are afterwards, I'd be more concerned about how the Megathron is given bonuses designed to give it 9+ turret DPS out of 7 turrets, thus effectively giving it that extra low slot. That's going to matter more, IMO.


I agree. The Gallente BS will turn out to be quite the issue imo. Much of the potential balance issues of the Hyperion and Mega are being obfuscated by their collective whining about the Dominix.

The funny thing I noticed is that they exploded into an enormous whine festival about their battleships, and CCP caves literally within 2 hours, and now they are pretty borderline. (OP, that is) Even the Dominix, the droneboat, gets a +1000 base cap buff... ???

But when Amarr begin mentioning their obvious-for-years cap issues...

They dig their heels in for 4 straight days before putting this thread up. They add + 0.5 cap per second back to the Apoc... Roll yeah that helps...

What's the damn difference, really? Is it some instinctive dread that if you let us fire our guns for more than a couple minutes, we will somehow take over the entire server?

Or is it some kind of sacred cow?

We deserve an explanation. (betcha we won't get one, because the actual reason is "meh, no reason", or "we didn't feel like it", or some such unacceptable nonsense. Thus, their best answer is silence)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#522 - 2013-04-28 14:27:05 UTC
I just personally can't understand the devs viewpoint on this. Beams aren't a little broken here's some cap reduction. Beams are severely broken. One of the easiest ways to see this on Live is Supply and Demand. Beam lasers are by far the cheapest weapons you can buy. Because no one wants them. That is usually a pretty unbiased determining factor.

Someone said in this forum "They're going to rebalance beams anyway". I'm all for that.
I just don't want to wait another 5 years for it to happen.

The trouble with the Amarr ship changes isn't just about the ships. The complete disregard by the devs over lasers, beams lasers in particular is the real issue.

I understand the hate for the Armageddon changes.They really did pretty much change the ship to fit their "vision".
But ripping off cap bonuses on ships that are pretty much dependent on them without changing lasers is fail.

My opinion is still that the metric they are using to "balance" lasers is broken for beam lasers.
How else can you explain that for YEARS beam laser being terribad yet no major changes to them?
Removing the -10% cap usage was the best thing they could have done. As it brings the glaring issue of just how broken these weapons are to light.


Reposting from the BS forum as it's also relevant here.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#523 - 2013-04-28 14:36:38 UTC
lasers need a more serious cap reduction. Removal of cap reduction bonuses is going to hurt allot of ships pretty hard.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#524 - 2013-04-28 14:38:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

The funny thing I noticed is that they exploded into an enormous whine festival about their battleships, and CCP caves literally within 2 hours, and now they are pretty borderline. (OP, that is) Even the Dominix, the droneboat, gets a +1000 base cap buff... ???



The original whining about the mega and hyperion had some merit, however the new changes are pretty good. The new hyperion is probably a bit op, needs a reduction in drone bay. 50m3 spare is a bit over the top. As for the mega? It's pretty beast considering the most recent change proposal. 1400ish overheated gun dps is rather nice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#525 - 2013-04-28 15:30:03 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

The funny thing I noticed is that they exploded into an enormous whine festival about their battleships, and CCP caves literally within 2 hours, and now they are pretty borderline. (OP, that is) Even the Dominix, the droneboat, gets a +1000 base cap buff... ???



The original whining about the mega and hyperion had some merit, however the new changes are pretty good. The new hyperion is probably a bit op, needs a reduction in drone bay. 50m3 spare is a bit over the top. As for the mega? It's pretty beast considering the most recent change proposal. 1400ish overheated gun dps is rather nice.


That's precisely my point. They cried about their ships for about two hours, and poof, now they are, as I said, borderline OP.

We have legitimate complaints for two weeks now, and the last on any Amarr thread amounted to "quit your bitching" and "feel lucky we reduced cap on Large Lasers at all".

Hypocrisy much?

That's the problem with caving in to QQ. You do it once (and so blasted quickly at that), then people have an honest reason for asking you why just Gallente get such special treatment.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#526 - 2013-04-28 20:32:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That's precisely my point. They cried about their ships for about two hours, and poof, now they are, as I said, borderline OP.

We have legitimate complaints for two weeks now, and the last on any Amarr thread amounted to "quit your bitching" and "feel lucky we reduced cap on Large Lasers at all".

Hypocrisy much?

That's the problem with caving in to QQ. You do it once (and so blasted quickly at that), then people have an honest reason for asking you why just Gallente get such special treatment.

The "problem" with amarr is that they are perfectly fine and good with pulse laser already. Pulse laser is an extremely versatile and powerful weapon. They marginaly need beams anyway. That's the main problem of beams nobody here want to recognize. The only use of beams would be to play on the ground of another race, and nobody suggested anything for this problem.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#527 - 2013-04-28 21:17:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That's precisely my point. They cried about their ships for about two hours, and poof, now they are, as I said, borderline OP.

We have legitimate complaints for two weeks now, and the last on any Amarr thread amounted to "quit your bitching" and "feel lucky we reduced cap on Large Lasers at all".

Hypocrisy much?

That's the problem with caving in to QQ. You do it once (and so blasted quickly at that), then people have an honest reason for asking you why just Gallente get such special treatment.

The "problem" with amarr is that they are perfectly fine and good with pulse laser already. Pulse laser is an extremely versatile and powerful weapon. They marginaly need beams anyway. That's the main problem of beams nobody here want to recognize. The only use of beams would be to play on the ground of another race, and nobody suggested anything for this problem.


And you have yet to recognize the counter to your "argument", that it's in no way fine to have an entire category of ranged weapons be totally un-usable. In your mind, any viability of beams ruins railguns forever, and you have repeatedly said as much.

Guess what? Viable long range weapons don't just belong to one or any race.

The kind of nonsense you are spouting is like saying rockets make autocannons unviable. It's not only a lie, but a specious, circular argument at best. No one suggests anything for the "problem" you talk about, because it's simply not true. No one cares if by making beams usable, they become an alternative to railguns, arty, or whatever else. They are SUPPOSED to be an alternative, simply by their existence. At present, they are not.

No matter what kind of nonsense you can trot out to justify leaving beams in their current s***ty state, nothing trumps the fact that is not fine to have fully half of an entire race's weapon systems be un-usable. Un-usable because they are too difficult to fit, weaker on paper and in practice than any railguns or arty, and because there are few if any ships capable of making any use of them anyway. (that last statement is about cruiser and frigate size beams, which have no use. at all.)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#528 - 2013-04-28 23:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

And you have yet to recognize the counter to your "argument", that it's in no way fine to have an entire category of ranged weapons be totally un-usable. In your mind, any viability of beams ruins railguns forever, and you have repeatedly said as much.

They're not. Large beams aren't that bad, provided they're fitted on ships that have the right bonuses for them. They don't have the extreme range of a rail Rokh, but they certainly have enough range, and they have a much wider engagement envelope because they track so much better.

IMO beams are in a much better position than medium rails are at this time. Beams need a bit of a tweak to cap consumption, but are otherwise good.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#529 - 2013-04-28 23:05:33 UTC
If a ship has bonuses to a weapon, it should be no brainer to fit that particular type of LR weapon to that ship. Currently it's a no brainer for rail ships, a no brainer for missile ships, a no brainer for projectile ships....
But..... Laser ships have to consider projectiles, even when they HAVE a bonus to lasers.

No-one with any sort of brain considers LR Lasers on an unbonused ship. Even if it is Amarr.

An unbonused ship should equally consider all LR Turret options. A bonused ship should be obvious. This means Beam Lasers need major fixing still.
Pulse lasers still have cap issues, Scorch may need a slight tweak to balance scorch, but without scorch, Pulse Lasers are also in a bad place.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#530 - 2013-04-28 23:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]
And you have yet to recognize the counter to your "argument", that it's in no way fine to have an entire category of ranged weapons be totally un-usable. In your mind, any viability of beams ruins railguns forever, and you have repeatedly said as much.
[quote]
They're not. Large beams aren't that bad, provided they're fitted on ships that have the right bonuses for them. They don't have the extreme range of a rail Rokh, but they certainly have enough range, and they have a much wider engagement envelope because they track so much better.

IMO beams are in a much better position than medium rails are at this time. Beams need a bit of a tweak to cap consumption, but are otherwise good.


Fleets of Arty 1400 Amarr ships say otherwise. Beams have obscene cap and PG requirements when there really isn't any advantage to using them over Scorch, only debilitating downsides. Tach's are a viable alternative to Scorch but no Amarr ships can physically fit them without gimping their fit to even mount them let alone fire them and Amarr are the only ones with this issue. That's what 100+ pages of this thread are about.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#531 - 2013-04-28 23:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]
And you have yet to recognize the counter to your "argument", that it's in no way fine to have an entire category of ranged weapons be totally un-usable. In your mind, any viability of beams ruins railguns forever, and you have repeatedly said as much.
[quote]
They're not. Large beams aren't that bad, provided they're fitted on ships that have the right bonuses for them. They don't have the extreme range of a rail Rokh, but they certainly have enough range, and they have a much wider engagement envelope because they track so much better.

IMO beams are in a much better position than medium rails are at this time. Beams need a bit of a tweak to cap consumption, but are otherwise good.


Wait, so are you comparing large beams to medium rails, or...? If you are comparing medium beams to medium railguns, well, then we have to disagree.

Because both medium beams and railguns suck something awful. Pretty much the only long range weapons that look good at the medium size level are arty and heavy missiles. (less so now that HMs have been nerfed).

Medium Beams and Railguns both suffer from the fact that the individual weapons are very poor, but also that there are no cruisers designed to properly take advantage of either of them. What are you supposed to fit medium beams on, an Omen, a Maller, an Arbitrator? Fat chance. And the BCs don't/can't use them either. Same for railguns, like, do they genuinely expect someone who has a clue what they are doing to ever fit a Moa/Blackbird with rails? And we all know how much the Ferox sucks.

So yeah, Mediums for both of those systems are little more than a stepping stone to Large specialization. It's entirely wasted.

Which, btw, is part of my reason for crusading for an overall rework of beams at every level, not just large. Because unlike rails, which are actually a good choice at both large and small level, beams suck at small, medium, and large.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#532 - 2013-04-29 18:23:54 UTC
Personally I think it is idiotic to have a race firing a weapon that is triple the cap cost as the next weapon down and yet has TWO BS's with 8 turrets, whereas the Gallente feedback prompted them to change their BS's to not have 8 turrets anymore. Apparently 107+ pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback isn't enough.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#533 - 2013-04-29 18:41:04 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Personally I think it is idiotic to have a race firing a weapon that is triple the cap cost as the next weapon down and yet has TWO BS's with 8 turrets, whereas the Gallente feedback prompted them to change their BS's to not have 8 turrets anymore. Apparently 107+ pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback isn't enough.


Not true, my friend.

They caved to Gallente whining in less than two hours.

But they brilliantly elucidated exactly why the Amarr thread, with precisely the same cogent arguments about the unsuitability of their own battleships, get precisely squat. Paraphrasing here, so bear with me.

"Cuz they're different".

Yep. You heard it here folks, what's good for the goose, is not in fact good for the gander.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2013-04-30 04:22:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Asking for amarr to be cap easy is asking for homogenization.
It's like asking for Minmatar to have hit points, for Gallente to have range, or like asking for Caldari to have tracking.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#535 - 2013-04-30 04:28:30 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Asking for amarr to be cap easy is asking for homogenization.
It's like asking for Minmatar to have hit points, for Gallente to have range, or like asking for Caldari to have tracking.


Because flying a floating brick is 'fun'. At least minmatar have speed, caldari have range, and gallente have some insane close range dps. What are amarr left with? Hit points? Great, welcome our old style prophecy overlords.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#536 - 2013-04-30 04:34:34 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Personally I think it is idiotic to have a race firing a weapon that is triple the cap cost as the next weapon down and yet has TWO BS's with 8 turrets, whereas the Gallente feedback prompted them to change their BS's to not have 8 turrets anymore. Apparently 107+ pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback isn't enough.

You mean 134+ pages.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#537 - 2013-04-30 04:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Asking for amarr to be cap easy is asking for homogenization.
It's like asking for Minmatar to have hit points, for Gallente to have range, or like asking for Caldari to have tracking.


Nobody is asking to be cap easy, there is a taxi cab ride of difference between TRIPLE the cost of the next weapon down and "cap easy". As someone else said, at least the other races are compensated for their downsides, all we get are more turrets (but same dps) on our BS's to pour salt on our cap-use wounds.
Jake Pappottess
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2013-04-30 07:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Pappottess
One possible addition for lasers would be the addition of crystals to add damage types, the Caldari can switch between the four damage types. I believe crystals like a tractor/force crystal could cause kinetic damage, and possibly some type of explosive damage crystal. Yes one problem with lasers is Cap use (and it is a huge problem), but also the limit of lasers in predictable damage types.

Most fits I have to use require most or all of the mid slots filled with cap rechargers or some equivilant. I would like some reduction in cap use of lasers so that I can add a possible variety of EWAR without completely sacrificing cap time.

I love sniping ships personally, but in order to put out any matter of dps you need to use insane amounts of cap. A problem with lasers is they are traditionally combined with armor tanking which is also very cap intensive for repairing (even with ancillarys which still use cap with the nanite repair paste). I do not think armor tanking should be changed, but I think that its cap use should be factored in when comparing to the cap used by lasers.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#539 - 2013-04-30 07:52:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.

Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.



translation: y'all are still ****** for another year if you go into ammar with out a minimum of 15 million SP in armor and cap skills

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2013-04-30 08:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.

Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.



translation: y'all are still ****** for another year if you go into ammar with out a minimum of 15 million SP in armor and cap skills

I wish they could make some racial bonuses for the ships over the current bonuses, that could solve this problem easily , while keeping lasers not wanted by other races.

Also there are many ships which dropped the usual 2 bonus/ship or 4 for t2 , wouldnt be hard to give amarr ships back their -10%cap use bonus/lvl as racial bonuses or think out newer ones, could be -30% cap use by laser weapons , so you dont need lvl5 ship skills to dont run out of cap half way in the battle. Also I cant see why amarr hulls couldnt have way better cap /cap regen than the other races.
How absurd is that the race with powerhungry guns and superior reactors have the same energy generated as the race which were enslaved and use outdated reactors and uses capless arties. Sounds silly ,doesn't it?