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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2201 - 2013-04-27 11:31:07 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Megathron
- A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.


This ^^ merits repeating.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2202 - 2013-04-27 12:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I am still very worried about the sheer dps potential coming from that Megathron without any significant weakness in durabiluty with 8 lowslots and only 500 less armor hitpoints than the Amarr Apocalypse battleship.

The Megathron in the current condition can pack a serious punch...
Megathron punch so hard people rarely get to deploy their set of heavy drones in a fight before their target is down.

Currently I find the Megathron balanced by the choice of having 3 plates + 1 damage mod or 2 plates + 2 damage mods.

Losing some drone power and a hi-slot which might have held a heavy neutralizer is a small price to pay for getting MORE gun dps and a lowslot for an extra plate or damage mod - or nanofiber/tracking enhancer/eccm whatever... This is a huge buff to one of the ships that didn't really need it - And the gameplay doesn't get changed at all.

I liked the initial proposal much better that suggested a role change - I like a Megathron with 7/5/7 layout a lot. Then I don't mind the ship having a RoF bonus and only 75-100 drone bay...



I've found that a mega fit with 2x plates and 3x mag stabs is beating pretty much any non active tanked bs in a brawl. While this may be rather expected, the victories are coming out rather lop sided.

I've been testing them on duality whenever people are on... Runing a 3% rof implant and perfect lvl 5 skills i'm getting just under 1600 dps overheated, Thats quite a bit more than the dual plated dual mfs mega of the past. Especially considering it's got just about the same ehp and is slightly more mobile.

The vast majority of complaints about the mega being cap "unstable" are pretty much unfounded. A single heavy cap injector can easily, and I say easily keep your guns running and your tackle active even with 2x heavy neuts on you. I don't see the problem.


While I don't see a real issue with the way this works as the megathron has many counters and it's close range dps does not scale very well in medium to large scale gangs... It does most certainly kick ass at the moment, regardless of what the whiners who have not tested it here say.


I'm not able to go on the test server, but these numbers seem a bit off. The current mega with 3 mag stabs puts out 1096 gun dps with void on EFT with max skills. Adding the five Ogre IIs gives you about 317 more dps. Overheating gives you 1260 gun dps, so all told, you get 1577 dps overheated on the old mega.

Now the new RoF bonus compared to the damage bonus gives you about 6% more gun dps. adding that to the overheated numbers gets you about 1335.6 overheated gun dps on the new mega, but you're losing 127 dps because of the 75mb bandwidth, so your dps comes out to 1525.6 overheated on the new mega with 3 mag stabs. It's actually less than it was on the old mega with the loss of the drones.

My point is that these changes are, imo, an overall nerf to the blaster Megathron. The proposed iteration has less dps than the original, less tank, no utility high slot, and has taken a hit on cap because of the RoF bonus. All for a bit more speed.

None of these "balancing" measures really address what the real problems with the mega and blaster boats in general are, i.e. slow when properly tanked, not enough dps to make up the difference when you get to target, poor damage projection when compared to other BS. Maybe the speed buff does something to address this? But something tells me 7m/s more speed isn't going to bridge the gap between the mega and the other BS out there.

All that said, I am actually curious how fast it goes on the test server with the MWD on.

Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2203 - 2013-04-27 13:07:32 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship.

The new Hyperion is everything you can ask from a blaster ship, and even more. The new Megathron is only here to please those who want it to be a worse something else with a Megathron hull.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2204 - 2013-04-27 13:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Julius Foederatus wrote:


I'm not able to go on the test server, but these numbers seem a bit off. The current mega with 3 mag stabs puts out 1096 gun dps with void on EFT with max skills. Adding the five Ogre IIs gives you about 317 more dps. Overheating gives you 1260 gun dps, so all told, you get 1577 dps overheated on the old mega.

Now the new RoF bonus compared to the damage bonus gives you about 6% more gun dps. adding that to the overheated numbers gets you about 1335.6 overheated gun dps on the new mega, but you're losing 127 dps because of the 75mb bandwidth, so your dps comes out to 1525.6 overheated on the new mega with 3 mag stabs. It's actually less than it was on the old mega with the loss of the drones.

My point is that these changes are, imo, an overall nerf to the blaster Megathron. The proposed iteration has less dps than the original, less tank, no utility high slot, and has taken a hit on cap because of the RoF bonus. All for a bit more speed.

None of these "balancing" measures really address what the real problems with the mega and blaster boats in general are, i.e. slow when properly tanked, not enough dps to make up the difference when you get to target, poor damage projection when compared to other BS. Maybe the speed buff does something to address this? But something tells me 7m/s more speed isn't going to bridge the gap between the mega and the other BS out there.

All that said, I am actually curious how fast it goes on the test server with the MWD on.

Frankly, I'd take the current Mega over the proposed one everyday and twice on Sundays. I'm pretty sure no one thinks the old Mega needed to be nerfed, so lets come up with something that actually gives us a net improvement on the ship.


Allot of what you are saying is ballox my friend. Either your math is off or you're pulling numbers out of your ass. Here are two screen shots showing the difference in dps between tq mega and duality mega...

As for your claim or rather whine about how these changes don't change any of the megathrons real problems... Mega has been one of the most well balanced BS for a long time, there has not been allot wrong with the ship. The new ship does more dps, by a wide margin with about the same ehp, a bit more speed, and omg a bit more cap consumption on the guns... As for the cap consumption, as I previously stated, a heavy cap injector can keep your guns running while under multiple nuets just fine. The cap argument is just another whine posted by uneducated players unwilling to give the change a real try.

Here are the two images, both with the same implants (3% rof)

http://imageshack.us/f/62/livemega.jpg/


new mega

Yeah, so old mega with 2x mfs does more dps than new mega with 3x.... not... and comparing a 3x mag stab old mega to 3x mag stab new mega makes no sense as you either have to drop an eanm, or 1600mm to make it fit. New mega is capable of just about the same tank with an extra mag stab, that is how you compare them.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2205 - 2013-04-27 14:16:44 UTC
You're right, my math was wrong. Or rather not wrong but I was assuming that a 3 mfs Mega had the same tank as a 3mfs mega under the proposed changes, which was clearly not right.

So I've changed my mind, I endorse this product and or service CCP.

P.S. You kinda sound like a prick when you argue, you should try and work on that.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2206 - 2013-04-27 14:21:40 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
You're right, my math was wrong. Or rather not wrong but I was assuming that a 3 mfs Mega had the same tank as a 3mfs mega under the proposed changes, which was clearly not right.

So I've changed my mind, I endorse this product and or service CCP.

P.S. You kinda sound like a prick when you argue, you should try and work on that.


Don't post misinformed opinions and the problem should sort itself.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2207 - 2013-04-27 14:49:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
I would like the Hyperion to trade one of it's bonuses for s fall off bonus (if the damage bonus was swapped, it should gain it's 8 turrets back) this way it can still remain a blaster platform but with a noticeably different role than the megathron.

A hybrid falloff bonus would be awesome on the Hyperion - it would give it greater range flexibility with blasters, but it would also make it a scarily effective rail sniper while still being different from the Rokh.

Wouldn't it overshadow the Tempest or Maelstrom ?

If that was the case wouldn't the rohk and apoc already do so?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2208 - 2013-04-27 17:56:35 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You know, CCP, I had some pretty strong opinions on Gallente battleships and the changes didn't sit well with me, so I decided that instead of getting properly upset I'd give it a couple of weeks and then come back, hoping that when things had had some time to settle, things would get better.

They have not gotten better and I'm very deeply disappointed.

Let me break it down for you:

Hyperion
- Having two less turrets breaks the Hyperion's model, since it very clearly has eight turret hardpoints. It's literally built into the model. It needs to have eight turrets. That's the Hyperion's entire raison d'etre.
- Giving it a 10% damage bonus instead of a 5% one will not fix the ship, because the problem is nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals. When it's fitted for damage, it's one of the most dangerous ships in the game but it's let down by its serious lack of survivability.
- You give the excuse of not changing its repair bonus to something more useful because you guys want to fix both active tanking and armour tanking. Cool! I'm all for that - but don't leave a ship supporting a broken mechanic in the meantime unless you mean to fix active tanking and armour tanking at the same time.
- Another problem you haven't solved is that the Hyperion is still a less useful version of the Megathron. You need to give it a role far more differentiated from the Megathron. The Gallente currently lack a viable sniper platform - consider that.

Megathron
- A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
- The Megathron - and blaster boats in general - desperately need more manouverability. The only advantage the Megathron currently possesses over the Talos is that the Talos has vastly less survivability than the Megathron, but this is quickly negated by the fact that the Megathron is often dead long before it gets into range of what it's trying to shoot at.
- Dropping the drone bay is a bad idea.

Dominix
- The tracking speed/optimal range bonus is essentially entirely worthless for non-sentry drones. If you want the ship to buff sentry drones specifically, give it to it as a role bonus and free up the other Gallente Battleship skill bonus for something else.
- The Dominix, believe it or not, does benefit from its hybrid bonus, but if you're not going to give it back, consider giving it a remote repair bonus - this is one of the uses to which it's unusually suited.


Hi,

every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes.



.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2209 - 2013-04-27 19:37:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Hyperion:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485

Megathron:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)


No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge.
Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker....
Also armour repping is still pretty weak....
Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2210 - 2013-04-27 19:49:06 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge.
Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker....
Also armour repping is still pretty weak....
Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least.


you should probably look into what 2x heavy cap injectors does bro... Cap recharge is going to have a rather insignificant effect on the Hyperion's ability in pvp. The simple fact that it gets more gun dps (extra low, and ability to fit full rack of ions), more drone dps, and a heavy nuet means that it is much much better than it was before. In armor buffer fit, It's going to be dual webbed with a cap injector or filled with some other form of Ewar, ship is getting better in this style of fit as well.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2211 - 2013-04-27 19:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


No chance of the Hyperion being OP atm with its lame cap recharge rate its as low as it could be the default cap recharge.
Even the mega has better cap even though the Hyperion is the active tanker....
Also armour repping is still pretty weak....
Maybe if you rectify these 2 things then it may just be bordering OP at least.


you should probably look into what 2x heavy cap injectors does bro... Cap recharge is going to have a rather insignificant effect on the Hyperion's ability in pvp. The simple fact that it gets more gun dps (extra low, and ability to fit full rack of ions), more drone dps, and a heavy nuet means that it is much much better than it was before. In armor buffer fit, It's going to be dual webbed with a cap injector or filled with some other form of Ewar, ship is getting better in this style of fit as well.


what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P
it needs much more pg than the mega..
armour reps and armour rep rigs a nos/neut uses more pg than guns do.. and it only gets 250 more than mega .. its a joke
The maelstrom doesn't have too pick which tier guns too fit. .. why should the Hyperion?
O it also needs at least 1 Heavy cap booster thats another guns worth of pg

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2212 - 2013-04-27 20:12:46 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P
it needs much more pg than the mega..
armour reps and armour rep rigs a nos/neut uses more pg than guns do.. and it only gets 250 more than mega .. its a joke
The maelstrom doesn't have too pick which tier guns too fit. .. why should the Hyperion?
O it also needs at least 1 Heavy cap booster thats another guns worth of pg


You tested changes on duality yet bub? Based on the tone of your comments I'm going to assume you have not.

As for the inability to fit largest tier guns with 2x heavy cap injectors, 2x large reppers, and a heavy nuet... It can't be the best at everything. Ship is still doing over 1100 dps with said fit while sporting a tank that can easily handle any other bs out there with ease, even with a couple heavy nuets draining your cap.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2213 - 2013-04-27 20:21:12 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


what so it can't even fit Neutrons? .... mmm... very OP eh :P
it needs much more pg than the mega..
armour reps and armour rep rigs a nos/neut uses more pg than guns do.. and it only gets 250 more than mega .. its a joke
The maelstrom doesn't have too pick which tier guns too fit. .. why should the Hyperion?
O it also needs at least 1 Heavy cap booster thats another guns worth of pg


You tested changes on duality yet bub? Based on the tone of your comments I'm going to assume you have not.

As for the inability to fit largest tier guns with 2x heavy cap injectors, 2x large reppers, and a heavy nuet... It can't be the best at everything. Ship is still doing over 1100 dps with said fit while sporting a tank that can easily handle any other bs out there with ease, even with a couple heavy nuets draining your cap.


im working off eft so maybe that 250 really makes a massive difference but i imagine not somehow.. but the point is the maelstrom can fit arties if it wants on it along with anything else it wants yet gallente ships can't even fit the highest tier short range guns nevermind fitting rail ..... it is unbalanced are you happy with this?
Gallente pilots complain about the lack of fleet ships and this is why they do.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2214 - 2013-04-27 20:33:01 UTC
Roime wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You know, CCP, I had some pretty strong opinions on Gallente battleships and the changes didn't sit well with me, so I decided that instead of getting properly upset I'd give it a couple of weeks and then come back, hoping that when things had had some time to settle, things would get better.

They have not gotten better and I'm very deeply disappointed.

Let me break it down for you:

Hyperion
- Having two less turrets breaks the Hyperion's model, since it very clearly has eight turret hardpoints. It's literally built into the model. It needs to have eight turrets. That's the Hyperion's entire raison d'etre.
- Giving it a 10% damage bonus instead of a 5% one will not fix the ship, because the problem is nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals. When it's fitted for damage, it's one of the most dangerous ships in the game but it's let down by its serious lack of survivability.
- You give the excuse of not changing its repair bonus to something more useful because you guys want to fix both active tanking and armour tanking. Cool! I'm all for that - but don't leave a ship supporting a broken mechanic in the meantime unless you mean to fix active tanking and armour tanking at the same time.
- Another problem you haven't solved is that the Hyperion is still a less useful version of the Megathron. You need to give it a role far more differentiated from the Megathron. The Gallente currently lack a viable sniper platform - consider that.

Megathron
- A rate of fire bonus on turrets that use capacitor is a very bad idea unless you commensurately increase its capacitor recharge rate. It will also cause the guns to consume more ammunition which will have a negative effect on its battlefield endurance.
- The Megathron - and blaster boats in general - desperately need more manouverability. The only advantage the Megathron currently possesses over the Talos is that the Talos has vastly less survivability than the Megathron, but this is quickly negated by the fact that the Megathron is often dead long before it gets into range of what it's trying to shoot at.
- Dropping the drone bay is a bad idea.

Dominix
- The tracking speed/optimal range bonus is essentially entirely worthless for non-sentry drones. If you want the ship to buff sentry drones specifically, give it to it as a role bonus and free up the other Gallente Battleship skill bonus for something else.
- The Dominix, believe it or not, does benefit from its hybrid bonus, but if you're not going to give it back, consider giving it a remote repair bonus - this is one of the uses to which it's unusually suited.


Hi,

every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes.






Perhaps you could highlight to me where the balancing change to make the mega cap neutral to the ROF increase is, because I cant see it either. The small cap increase doesnt cut it, afaik.

Or was the mega too cap stable before..........?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2215 - 2013-04-27 20:57:01 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
snip




Cause a barely noticable increase in poweruse is not important if you got the midslot and the PG to fit a heavy capinjector anyways.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2216 - 2013-04-27 23:17:25 UTC
Roime wrote:
Hi,

every single point on your list is uninformed bullcrap, it's like you didn't even read the changes.

Yeah, no. If you're going to troll, put some effort into it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2217 - 2013-04-28 00:07:19 UTC
Just stating a fact, mate, no more effort needed.

.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#2218 - 2013-04-28 07:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Destoya
Well, at least some of you seem to realize now that the 2nd version of the Hype is OP, that's a step up from the last time I checked this thread
Perihelion Olenard
#2219 - 2013-04-28 11:01:01 UTC
I'm still trying to understand the changes behind the Dominix. If you want it to be a sniper it should be an attack battleship, not combat. Even if it becomes a sentry drone sniper a couple other ships will probably do it better. I really don't like sentry drones anyway since their damage is delayed, they don't move when recalled, their signature resolution is massive, and they can easily be alphaed by another sniper.

For brawling with an armor tank the new Dominix isn't going to have very good damage compared to what can be achieved with the new Megathron or Hyperion. Saying the damage was too high when gank fit isn't very good justification for removing the turret damage bonus. The same can be said about the Vexor and Brutix, but they aren't being nerfed.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#2220 - 2013-04-28 15:48:35 UTC
sentries are good in some specific roles but i dont really see them being a serious fleet doctrine for anyone except in carriers ... a small squad of stealth bombers and a well timed bomb volley can clear 100+ domi's sentry dps in a blink. at least with carriers you have room to to store so many extra sentries it isnt that huge of a deal ... but in domi's if they get their bouncers cleared out by bombs and then an armor fleet undocks they are basically toast. same if they get curators cleared then hostiles undock shield fleet ect ect ... seems to easily counterable.

the whole fleet of domi's sentries can be cleared by some good bombs... and they cant stay aligned so no fast warpouts when sentries deployed. i just dont see it working ... and i think the people that do like it are probably underskilled gallente pilots who cant use large t2 railguns anyway and are thinking about doing missions ... they probably arent even considering pvp. domi is going to be a noob gallente pilot mission ship who is probably going to train projectiles intead of railguns.

if you want it to be a serious sentry fleet ship you need to change sentries so that they can move with its host ship to stay in docking range when aligned (not using prop mods) ... or simply allow ships to stay aligned while not moving ... its stupid anyway that your ship aligns to some stupid angle while at 0 in space anyway.

until this is changed this will not be a serious fleet ship ... there is a reason ishtars are hardly used in HAC fleets and until you change these basic flaws with sentry's in an offensive mobile fleet things are going to remain the same as now. crapcat fleets are not a go.