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(Odyssey) Exploration Site Mechanics

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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#101 - 2013-04-28 04:28:58 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Aria Ning wrote:
I think you're over exaggerating. What if originally 5 items were to jettison out and you were able to collect all 5 before the 5th one expired into space? So you essentially received 5/5 and I would assume you be happy. But in reality CCP jettisons 10 items but you still can only get 5 before they all expire into space, however, now that you know there were a total of 10 you were unhappy because you couldn't get the other 5 items but you still managed to get 5 out of 10. So you still got the same amount in both situations. But in the 2nd situation since you know that there were 10 items you feel you should be entitled to get the other 5 you missed out. Where as, I honestly just see it as "hey there are more items available, you could bring a friend if you want to get the rest but it's not necessarily needed."

The player just used his skill to succeed at a solo activity.

He then watches 50% of the resulting loot disappear, giving the impression of a failure. It's not about entitlement to the other half. It makes you feel bad for doing the site when no friends were around. Making a player feel bad for succeeding = bad game design.

For that matter, it IS a failure. He should bookmark the site and wait for a friend to become available to come with him.


You're misreading this pretty badly. It becomes painfully obvious for anyone who isn't new that you're not supposed to get all the loot. Stop thinking of it as failure and think of it as degree of success. A player succeeds, but a better player succeeds better.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#102 - 2013-04-28 04:33:51 UTC
I guess people just wont be happy unless they can manage to get 100% of whatever mechanic is applied doing whatever.
Josef Djugashvilis
#103 - 2013-04-28 05:50:44 UTC
I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea.

This is not a signature.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#104 - 2013-04-28 06:13:01 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea.

I think the opposite, a solo player should be able to get 100% of whatever they are interacting with, however it should take longer than a group would.

If the Loot Barf was persistent in the same way that normal cargo cans were(upto 2 hours before they pop) then no one would have an issue, even if they were moving at a fairly fast pace, because a solo player could then go chase down every can and get the loot, but a group would be able to collect them before they got too far and have to chase them less.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#105 - 2013-04-28 06:15:29 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:
Am I missing something?

I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit.

But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers.


This is what I'm thinking too. The problem I see is it means one (or more) of the group is going to be sitting around in space doing nothing while someone finishes a scan. I mean if I'm scanning system A, and someone else is doing system B, and I find an exploration site of three signature in A that will need both of us to run, if system B has seven signatures I've got to just sit there and float while the other fellow finishes scanning the seven sites in B. As it is now if I run the sites solo, I'm always doing something, I'm alway active. Even when I'm doing the actual hacking, I'm making sure I don't get caught.

But the new system which is pushing group play seems like it's also bringing in a lot of just sitting around being inactive waiting for someone else to do something if you do go in groups.

Also, I've quit playing games before because the mini game was so annoying (sid meier's pirates comes to mind). So for the love of internet spaceships please don't make an annoying mini game!



Erm? What exactly is preventing you fromg going next door to help your buddy scan?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#106 - 2013-04-28 06:43:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Manssell wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:
Am I missing something?

I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit.

But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers.


This is what I'm thinking too. The problem I see is it means one (or more) of the group is going to be sitting around in space doing nothing while someone finishes a scan. I mean if I'm scanning system A, and someone else is doing system B, and I find an exploration site of three signature in A that will need both of us to run, if system B has seven signatures I've got to just sit there and float while the other fellow finishes scanning the seven sites in B. As it is now if I run the sites solo, I'm always doing something, I'm alway active. Even when I'm doing the actual hacking, I'm making sure I don't get caught.

But the new system which is pushing group play seems like it's also bringing in a lot of just sitting around being inactive waiting for someone else to do something if you do go in groups.

Also, I've quit playing games before because the mini game was so annoying (sid meier's pirates comes to mind). So for the love of internet spaceships please don't make an annoying mini game!



Erm? What exactly is preventing you fromg going next door to help your buddy scan?


Nothing, other than the time it takes to make the jump, warp to safes, and get probes back out. I'm not saying that it can't or shouldn't be done, but in most cases I bet it will just end up with someone sitting around waitng. Just a hunch really. Yea, not scientific I know.
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2013-04-28 07:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Angang Ostus
The jury's out on the "pinata" system until current explorers can actually compare how much they're getting on average in loot. That's hard to do of course due to how random the sites are already. It might be a nice mechanic that serves to actually reward an individual as much as a group if, say, the amount that is gathered by an individual matches current rewards but with two players the value is increased and then with three it's maxed.

Yes, someone tagging along just to help with the loot grab will get bored during scanning. Probably the best solution is to both be in exploration frigs scanning adjacent systems and when one finds a site both warp to it. Problem with that is that these frigs can only fit one tractor beam if they have salvagers. Be nice if devs just made analyzer good for all relic sites and dropped salvager.

As for the mini game, well I don't know it data and relic minigames will be different but a hacking minigame fits with the idea of penetrating a computer's defenses and all that. Hopefully the relic one will at least use different terms like having to translate the ancient language to blahblah etc.

And I REALLY hope that there will be lots of tasty tidbits of lore in these ancient ships and hacked records etc. Please CCP let us find hidden lore treasures! (And gradiate their rarity because eventually they'll all be on record and folks will know which ones are rare, so it'll be worth ISK or better yet bragging rights to show everyone you've got that Ancient Captain's Log or Archaic Musical Intrument that only pops up one in a million sites or whatever.) This is the kind of stuff explorers crave! Lord knows why CCP hasn't added stuff like this into exploration long ago but I hope they will very soon!
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-04-28 07:08:35 UTC
Garresh wrote:
For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about.


This.
Sante Ixnay
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-04-28 07:33:28 UTC
We don't know enough yet to say how this will turn out, but I'm hoping Vanishing Loot Pixels will be a lot less irritating to me than Empty Loot Cans are now.

Of course, it'll be pretty hilarious if the loot pixels can be empty too. P

J'Ribs wrote:
Good thing is: With no NPC's, I can explore in Null in a Frigate and do radars. You could do Mags in a Frig in Null.... especially the Gurista Temples.

And losing the occasional Frig was no big deal.



That's a really good point. That aspect may end up shaking things up a lot more than the things most of us are focusing on in this thread.
Josef Djugashvilis
#110 - 2013-04-28 07:40:41 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea.

I think the opposite, a solo player should be able to get 100% of whatever they are interacting with, however it should take longer than a group would.

If the Loot Barf was persistent in the same way that normal cargo cans were(upto 2 hours before they pop) then no one would have an issue, even if they were moving at a fairly fast pace, because a solo player could then go chase down every can and get the loot, but a group would be able to collect them before they got too far and have to chase them less.


Please forgive me, my sarcasm did not come across well in print.

I agree with your idea though, exploration 'cans' should be persistent for the same length of time as mission cans.

This is not a signature.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-04-28 07:47:59 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:
Understand where I am coming from. I think the designers at CCP are intelligent people who do good work for the game and have worthy goals. It’s true, I have personally lamented the fact that design documents always included real at the expense of fun when considering new features to add into EVE when I thought both factors should be included. For example, the new multi-launch probe system with preset formations is both fun enhancing and feels real. It is a great addition to the game in my view.

However, the new system of hacking a hull by way of a mini-game that results in an explosion of goodies you and a pal have to run catch or lose looks to be a SILLY addition to play. It’s a feature more worthy of an action game that doesn’t take itself seriously instead of a a space sim like EVE. I think they should keep the goodies in a can to collect even if said can looks like a space ship to loot now. There are better ways to make exploration less of a solo activity but I am not sure they can kill multi-boxing on PC to get around this anyway as boxer can account for it.

I understand the need to make the game more accessible to new players. I understand making the game look nicer to improve its appeal with gate, docking, and new probe interface animations. It’s why I can accept the change in terminology for site names. But none of it should be done at the expense of actual, in-depth, play. Put it all together with the catch and grab mechanic and its like some one is looking to “dumb down” the game into an action game for PS4, tablets, mobiles, and novelty gadgets like Oculus.

There are enough shallow, pretty looking, little action games on the market right now and EVE’s intelligence, depth and breadth, is the only thing that keeps people here and playing as long as they do. I know the game has to grow and adapt but not at the cost of its core values with features like that.

Every aspect of the new exploration in Odyssey is a vast improvement on a terrible, absolutely terrible game mechanics we have now. And you have the audacity to claim this new system is going to 'dumb down' the current game play? Are you ******* high?!
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#112 - 2013-04-28 08:55:51 UTC
How about this guys:

Try the thing on Sisi then COMPLAIN, at the moment everything is conjecture. HTFU and GAFL (GAFL is a new one I made up: Get a F Life)
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#113 - 2013-04-28 09:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Dalmont Delantee wrote:
How about this guys:

Try the thing on Sisi then COMPLAIN, at the moment everything is conjecture. HTFU and GAFL (GAFL is a new one I made up: Get a F Life)


Yes lets wait until it is so far in development that scrapping it or major design changes probably wouldn't happen if it was that bad. What people are doing are placing their concerns with the concept of the new system, BEFORE they put a **** ton of work into it.

It seems most who have concerns(based on this thread) that the hacking part people are fine with, but the exploding loot not so much. This is what is called feedback.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Blue Binary
Polychoron
#114 - 2013-04-28 09:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue Binary
In relation to the trained hacking skill as it currently is, I have been under the impression that the skill dictates that if you have the skill to open it, then there is a percentage chance that loot would be claimable by the player upon opening the container.

I'm going to speculate here with a leap of logic and say that with this new hacking mechanic the loot may drop with 100% chance with random types. The player(s) could then cherry pick the loot from the limited time they have to take what they want. The player can then use real world skill to select loot rather than a computed percentage chance, although the type appearing could still be random.

I assume the hacking skill could function as the amount of "lives" available to you when you encounter the firewalls as shown in the video, though it was stated that the new hacking system is work in progress...

In relation to twitch aspect of the mechanics, it was stated that they are removing NPC's from the sites, therefore there needs to be a challenge to these sites otherwise it would be a canter. It might also present a challenge to the bots in the static sites.

For those looking for the video the Eve Keynote video @ 1:11:55 shows the new exploration mechanics.
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#115 - 2013-04-28 10:27:56 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.

The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic.




WHAT THE HELL - Exploration is a solo profession as advertised on the home page personality test of EVE website. Thousands of players enjoy the solo side of exploration. Post Odyssey we now have a mini game to play and solo players will be penalized.

What is it about CCP and a lot of Eve players that they cant stand the concept of the 'individual'

Based on the info available ,the new system is a clearly dumbing down, unrealistic and another SOLO nerf from the socialist workers collective of iceland.
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-04-28 10:39:29 UTC
Zen Dad wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.

The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic.




WHAT THE HELL - Exploration is a solo profession as advertised on the home page personality test of EVE website. Thousands of players enjoy the solo side of exploration. Post Odyssey we now have a mini game to play and solo players will be penalized.

What is it about CCP and a lot of Eve players that they cant stand the concept of the 'individual'

Based on the info available ,the new system is a clearly dumbing down, unrealistic and another SOLO nerf from the socialist workers collective of iceland.

How would solo players be penalized?
If I catch 5 items when I run a site solo, having a friend next to me catching 5 items himself wont mean I get more. If anything, it may mean I get less if we try going after the same things or there is less than 10 items expelled.
Nico elScorpio
Care Bear Hi Sec Industries
#117 - 2013-04-28 10:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nico elScorpio
What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards Ugh
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-04-28 11:11:48 UTC
Nico elScorpio wrote:
What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards Ugh

Unlike, you know, locking a can, activating a module on it and waiting half an hour to unlock it?
Nico elScorpio
Care Bear Hi Sec Industries
#119 - 2013-04-28 11:22:30 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Nico elScorpio wrote:
What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards Ugh

Unlike, you know, locking a can, activating a module on it and waiting half an hour to unlock it?


Well, when one turns zero into crap i'd rather stick to zero, because its way easier to evolve quality out of zero than out of crap.
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-04-28 11:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arin Archer
For Hacking, the higher your skill level probably equals increased "virus" hit points that give you a better chance to successfully complete the hack.

What will it be for Archeology?

Will we see specializations for Hacking and Archeology?


Hacking Skill Specializations (each rank 10) V

Hacking Bullet Time

-for each level you gain a higher "bullet time" slow down of exploding loot, giving you a better chance at clicking the little dots before they poof. (Think Matrix).

Hacking Butterfly Net (rank 10)

-each level increases the radius of your mouse icon, allowing you to possibly click two dots at once

Hacking Clear Vision (rank 10)

-each level increases the size of the dots you must click on with better loot appearing as smiley faces

Hacking Skill just to make you spend another 30 days training (rank 10)

-each level increases the time before the exploding loot vanishes by .01 seconds, level V gives you a full .5 seconds to get that last dot!


....oh I can't wait. I'm really not a fan of quick vanishing loot. That's not what EVE is all about and certainly not what solo players had hoped for with the new exploration expansion. The whole "bring a buddy" thing is kind of ridiculous as well as you would need to prepare them for the explosion....1 minute warning, please refrain from restroom breaks my virus game is almost over...it's coming...it's coming...get ready...set....START CLICKING!