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Jump clone timer
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Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#21 - 2013-04-26 00:18:39 UTC
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The reason jump clones originally had a timer was to prevent us from crossing the galaxy instantly.

Now we have warp to 0 and jump bridges and cyno's and a whole slew of ways to move instantly. And because clones are often used more for implant storage than movement, I feel the time has come to reduce this by a significant amount.

Now, whether this is by half or a percentage through skills, or making it percentage based with every time you jump in a 24 hour period requiring a longer wait. This could be a simple "two hours between jumping" or as complex as the devs feel it needs to be.

But I personally feel it needs to be reduced.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-04-26 03:58:02 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2013-04-26 04:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Ruze wrote:
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The reason jump clones originally had a timer was to prevent us from crossing the galaxy instantly.

Now we have warp to 0 and jump bridges and cyno's and a whole slew of ways to move instantly. And because clones are often used more for implant storage than movement, I feel the time has come to reduce this by a significant amount.


What errant nonsense. Even with JBs, cynos, and so forth it still takes time to move across the galaxy...and that is often perceived as a problem for null. So...lets make the problem worse?

Quote:
Now, whether this is by half or a percentage through skills, or making it percentage based with every time you jump in a 24 hour period requiring a longer wait. This could be a simple "two hours between jumping" or as complex as the devs feel it needs to be.

But I personally feel it needs to be reduced.


Says the 7 year old character who will benefit from this more than the 7 month old character. Why don't you just ask for lots of really awesome ships simply due to your age? Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#24 - 2013-04-26 04:05:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.


As an example, Drake. an elite group of pvpers could, with prior planning, lock down several systems on different ends of the galaxy with the use of jump clones alone. Without simultaneous coordination by the attacking parties, this could cause nullsec to become less available to newer or smaller groups.

Because what a small group can do well, a large group can do even better. At least in EvE.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-04-26 05:19:18 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.


As an example, Drake. an elite group of pvpers could, with prior planning, lock down several systems on different ends of the galaxy with the use of jump clones alone. Without simultaneous coordination by the attacking parties, this could cause nullsec to become less available to newer or smaller groups.

Because what a small group can do well, a large group can do even better. At least in EvE.


Sure, but they'll be able to hold far more space than they can use...then they'll rent it out. To the extent that force projection is a problem, then this will exacerbate the problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#26 - 2013-04-26 05:27:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.


As an example, Drake. an elite group of pvpers could, with prior planning, lock down several systems on different ends of the galaxy with the use of jump clones alone. Without simultaneous coordination by the attacking parties, this could cause nullsec to become less available to newer or smaller groups.

Because what a small group can do well, a large group can do even better. At least in EvE.


Sure, but they'll be able to hold far more space than they can use...then they'll rent it out. To the extent that force projection is a problem, then this will exacerbate the problem.


So how do you limit it?

To me, who would mainly use this as a means of saving implants (because lets face it, I'm just not going to undock with my +5's if it's dangerous outside), I would suggest that the time be related to the number of jumps distant the clone is. One hour for every gate or some such. You couldn't jump from one empire to the other without taking 12-15 hours.

Another option would be to increase the 'cooldown' between uses. In example, your first jump clone has a four hour cooldown, but your second has an 8, your third a 12, your fourth a 16, etc. This would reset if you waited at least 24 hours between JC's.

Finally, you have the skill method, which is obviously very much in line with EvE and CCP's method, but would also work more in the benefit of senior players than newer.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-04-26 06:43:24 UTC
Ruze wrote:


So how do you limit it?


Well, I'd say you don't start by making force projection easier, and at the same time make earning isk and skill points for older characters even easier than for new players.

Quote:
To me, who would mainly use this as a means of saving implants (because lets face it, I'm just not going to undock with my +5's if it's dangerous outside), I would suggest that the time be related to the number of jumps distant the clone is. One hour for every gate or some such. You couldn't jump from one empire to the other without taking 12-15 hours.


Yeah, and then soon, sov holding alliances are using it to move across the galaxy to different stagging systems very quickly. Even quicker than they can now (which is pretty quick).

Quote:
Finally, you have the skill method, which is obviously very much in line with EvE and CCP's method, but would also work more in the benefit of senior players than newer.



Considering that this method would lead to the older and richer characters training this skill faster than younger characters this would not really help much with either force projection or in widening the gap between newer players and older players.

Noting something is great for convenience sake really isn't a good argument. It tells me you haven't thought about the impact to balance. And keep in mind I'm a 5+ year old character. I'd definitely use this to:

1. Train faster than I am now.
2. Move to different staging areas very rapidly.
3. Optimize character implant clones.

Why let advantages go un-used? And I'm damn sure I would not be the only one.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-04-27 03:51:59 UTC
All you mongs going on about force projection really didn't read the simple solution I offered to that did you? Go back and read it again.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#29 - 2013-04-27 08:25:42 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.

Could, but if it's attacked by multiple fleets taking systems at the same time, it won't be possible. You've yet to point out why that would be bad.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#30 - 2013-04-27 08:33:50 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.


As an example, Drake. an elite group of pvpers could, with prior planning, lock down several systems on different ends of the galaxy with the use of jump clones alone. Without simultaneous coordination by the attacking parties, this could cause nullsec to become less available to newer or smaller groups.

Because what a small group can do well, a large group can do even better. At least in EvE.

But at the same time it lets smaller alliances better defend themselves in the event that they have to cross large relatively large distances to defend. For example, if mosr of the alliance's dreads are in th system being attacked, how will they get enough people into position to defend if their attackers have the system more or less completely locked. Even though larger forces can also use this, it provides a slight boost to the possibility of smallee forces to take Sov

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2013-04-28 03:22:30 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
Between JC's, cyno chains and bridges there is already massive issues with force projection in eve.

whilst this seems like a good idea in isolation. the effect of it would make it even easier for smaller forces to own larger spaces.

so no, this should not happen.

So you're saying Sov should always be held by the largest groups?


No he is saying that a small group could hold vast swaths of null.

Could, but if it's attacked by multiple fleets taking systems at the same time, it won't be possible. You've yet to point out why that would be bad.


The point is it makes it easier to move across the galaxy. That there is a special situation that makes that no possible is not a counter to the point that they can move rapidly across the galaxy outside that one special situation that is unlikely to happen.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-04-28 03:28:34 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:

But at the same time it lets smaller alliances better defend themselves in the event that they have to cross large relatively large distances to defend. For example, if mosr of the alliance's dreads are in th system being attacked, how will they get enough people into position to defend if their attackers have the system more or less completely locked. Even though larger forces can also use this, it provides a slight boost to the possibility of smallee forces to take Sov


So now it does help with force projection. Amazing, you are very adept at talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one.

But it provides the same boost to both large and small, and thus an alliance of any size could better defend a larger area than it would absent this change. Are there scenarios where it wouldn't work? Sure, but things like having a hell camp aren't that common and...take big alliances, not small ones. So yes, in a scenario of simultaneous attacks this doesn't help...but in scenarios of sequential attack it helps a great deal.

And I'll note that simultaneous attacks renders force projection moot with current mechanics. So that is a special scenario that isn't really the issue. What is at issue is that a force could attack somebody in south, and then if necessary JC back up north to defend and then JC back down in a rather short time to attack again.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Luc Chastot
#33 - 2013-04-28 03:46:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Still even this would undoubtedly benefit older/wealthier players far more than the newer/less rich players. Older players would be training faster, in general, that the newer players. Older players would have more ability to gather even more wealth than the younger players.

Training faster? How?

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-04-28 08:00:10 UTC
I must say that most of the clone related features are a pain in the heart!!!!!!!
Being it the jump clone, that is really annoying to set, move, use and wait to use again

Or the medical clone that you have to pay every time you get POD KILLED.

Or the training queue that you have to stop for the jump clone use....

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-04-29 18:56:24 UTC
As has been said above, making a change like this for the sake of convenience for the few that would not abuse it makes this a idea that has not been fully thought through.

especially taking into account the mechanics of Sov warfare currently. there are minimum times that things can be achieved as a result of reinforcement timers.

just looking at the 24 +- 3 hrs for a pos/ihub. it is possible that an entire fleet could defend two systems 40 jumps apart attacked at almost the same time. it just doesn't make sense.

If you look at your map and colour in by active pilots in system you can see what the effects of these problems cause. right now force projection is easy, so a alliance of a a few hundred can hold 10 - 20 systems with no real issue. larger alliances can hold a couple of regions. but they simply do not have the people to make use of this space.

They take all of this space because it provides them with a buffer, a no mans land which needs to be fought over, whilst having no real value. if they rent it, it's just more passive income for them which only serves to strengthen their positions.

The point people have been trying to make for several years now, was if it were harder to own large expanses of space, it would force greater diversification of 0.0 which is what everybody, except those at the very top want. it creates conflict and pushes 0.0 forward in every way.

so whilst your idea seems good for the health of the game, the exact opposite would be preferable.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-04-29 19:02:02 UTC
Unlimited clone jumps in the same station.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#37 - 2013-04-30 00:32:21 UTC
Would love to hear all your thoughts about my idea for Jump Clones here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230210&find=unread
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2013-04-30 19:16:46 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Still even this would undoubtedly benefit older/wealthier players far more than the newer/less rich players. Older players would be training faster, in general, that the newer players. Older players would have more ability to gather even more wealth than the younger players.

Training faster? How?


You can jump in and out of your +4s/+5s at a greater frequency. I could jump to my "training clone" at night, go to work and then when I get home jump back to my PvP clone if there is an Op, otherwise stay in the training clone. In other words, I'd be spending more time in my training clone than I otherwise would be.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-04-30 19:36:53 UTC
Ruze wrote:
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The reason jump clones originally had a timer was to prevent us from crossing the galaxy instantly.

Now we have warp to 0 and jump bridges and cyno's and a whole slew of ways to move instantly. And because clones are often used more for implant storage than movement, I feel the time has come to reduce this by a significant amount.

.


Err no. It's time to remove moving across the galaxy instantly.

It's the single biggest issue with nullsec stagnation and formation of the big blue donut.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#40 - 2013-05-01 04:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Remove the cooldown on Jump Clones completely. Allow players to jump between their clones whenever they wish. However! Jump clones can no longer be used to fast travel to other locations. Informorph Psychology will allow the player to store 5 clones in a single station, up to 5 stations at level 5 (a total of 25 clones across 5 stations). The player can switch freely between the clones stored at their current location, but they cannot jump into clones at any other location unless they travel to that location first.

This is my suggestion for a solution to allow players to be risk averse (saving their implants) without being allowed to avoid all risks (no instant warp across the galaxy).

Oh god.
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