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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#501 - 2013-04-27 00:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
meh, I should go to sleep instead of writing anything. :-(
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2013-04-27 00:13:49 UTC
The proposed "fix" has already been shown as being not quite up to par. I started with Gallente ships, rails, and blasters. The only reason I moved to Amarr and lasers was, well, friggin' lasers man. The things you give up for lasers is highly unbalanced, so it's good that this is being addressed. On the other hand, it's being addressed weakly. I don't want to see lasers get boosted so much that the need to revise them a second time, but the miniscule amount of change proposed doesn't do much. A -30% PG/-30% Cap would have been a good place to start, in my opinion. It's not too huge or too small a change to have to completely re-evaluate the turrets. From there better planned incremental changes could happen.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#503 - 2013-04-27 01:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Regolis
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Something I just realized : lens in laser turrets only reduce cap use whereas charges in hybrid turrets only *increase* it.

So, with standard lens, a laser turrets will see a 50% reduction to the capacitor need.
Whereas with antimatter charges hybrid turrets will see a 50% increase to the capacitor need.

If lasers are meant to use more cap than hybrids, then we can determine these conditions :
Call LC the cap used by laser turrets and HC those of hybrid turrets.
So we need LC*0,5 > HC*1,5 <=> LC > HC * 1,5/0,5
<=> LC > HC *3

This is the proof of why we need laser turret capacitor need to be three times hybrid turret capacitor need
If we don't meet this LC > HC *3, then hybrid turrets will use more cap on the edge cases while amarr ships still have largely superior capacitor than caldari or gallente ships.

That also mean that in most case (highest damage ammo), laser turrets only use 50% more capacitor than hybrid turrets, which is a lot more, but not so much as three times more.

The only case where laser use three times more cap than hybrid turrets (as some amarr lobyist want us to believe) is when you use multifreq lens in the laser versus lead charge in the hybrid : an obviously unfair comparison.

The thing to remember is that base cap use stat is a worse case for laser whereas it's a best case for hybrid.


Dude seriously just stop ... Go into Eve and actually look at the ammo before you make crap up ...
Why do you not read anything before frothing all over the place ....

Lets See .... STANDARD CRYSTAL = 20 EM / 12 Therm for -45% cap
VS The Mighty Gallente LEAD Charge = 20 KIN / 12 Therm for -50% cap

This is why you fail at math ... These are both the +0 range ammo
You'll also note that Gallente rails get EVEN MORE cap reduction from this range of Ammo than Amarr does.

Multifreq VS Antimater not Antimater VS Standard WTF
MattTrader
#504 - 2013-04-27 01:33:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So, with standard lens, a laser turrets will see a 50% reduction to the capacitor need.
Whereas with antimatter charges hybrid turrets will see a 50% increase to the capacitor need.


Yeah Bouth that shows a lot of inexperience on your part by comparing the highest dmg Gallente ammo that has the highest cap use with the middle of the line Amarr laser crystal which has -45% cap use.

Thats just wrong on so many levels!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#505 - 2013-04-27 07:07:51 UTC
Pathogen Ascention wrote:
... A -30% PG/-30% Cap would have been a good place to start, in my opinion. It's not too huge or too small a change to have to completely re-evaluate the turrets. From there better planned incremental changes could happen.

30/30 is enormous, the opposite of 'not huge'. The only way to make that kind of change fly would be to reevaluate (read: nerf!) laser damage/range/tracking as it would effectively make it more than viable on off-race hulls.

Lasers were made fitting/cap intensive as a counterweight to their awesomeness, problem now is that apart from Scoooorch! they are rather mediocre if that. I would personally be completely content with the current grid/cap if the weapons were as good as those figures warrant, but since that would likely push them far beyond blasters in all aspects that matter, another solution must be found (God weapons are a nono, projectiles taught us that).
Currently I am leaning towards increasing grid cost slightly (yes, you read that right), halving cap cost across the board and reducing cycle times by 5-10% (ie. +RoF). Tracking is among the worst there is, at least until lasers are revised and we 'hopefully' get some high tracking crystals so it even out.
It is to me preferable to add a fitting mod Instead of filling every nook and cranny with rechargers, relays and whatnot to make ends meet.

But ... all that is for the laser revision which probably won't begin to take shape until next year so we are looking at either a temporary solution that can be rolled into future revision (hard to do without doing preliminary revision work) or a more permanent option that can be left in place even after revision, but that means it can not be hull/weapon specific as you'd risk breaking it with future changes.

Quite the tasty pickle really .. which I can only imagine is why the Devs are reluctant to stick their hands into our little piranha tank more than absolutely necessary.
Asmodai Xodai
#506 - 2013-04-27 08:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

30/30 is enormous, the opposite of 'not huge'. The only way to make that kind of change fly would be to reevaluate (read: nerf!) laser damage/range/tracking as it would effectively make it more than viable on off-race hulls.

We don't need to punish the red-headed stepchild just to ensure that other races can't fit lasers.

Even if the proposed change made the weapons 'more than viable' on off-race hulls, I'm not utterly convinced that's so terrible. It seems viable to fit projectile weaponry on amarr hulls, so....

I don't think this is nearly as hard to fix as people make it out to be. If you don't want other races fitting lasers, then go ahead and make the powergrid requirements obscene (just like they are now), and just give amarr hulls powergrid bonuses to fit lasers. Problem solved.

Quote:
It is to me preferable to add a fitting mod Instead of filling every nook and cranny with rechargers, relays and whatnot to make ends meet.


To me it is preferable to actually solve the problem. There's no need to saddle amarr with fitting mods just to fit their weaponry. It's dumb. Fitting mods are supposed to be jump-gap measures to help low-skilled players fit ships.

People want to make this problem out to be rocket science. It isn't. The problem doesn't exist for railguns/blasters, nor projectiles. So copy the same general process used to balance those weapons onto amarr lasers. Problem solved.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#507 - 2013-04-27 09:51:08 UTC
30% buffs have been done before
Cruise Missiles just got about 30% damage increase
Hybrids got a 30% cap reduction in the past.

The problem has to be fixed on the laser stats though
Giving Amarr Ships huge cap regen or huge PG means they can fit everything else and laugh, and Amarr ships suddenly fit Projectiles & are impossible to cap out with Bhalgorns due to their crazy cap regen, or can fit Projectiles & 6*1600mm plates....

So you have to fix the lasers themselves, since the lasers are the broken part. And the Maths supports a 30% chance.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#508 - 2013-04-27 11:35:25 UTC
Leskit wrote:
I fly amarr too...but by extension, you're also asking for minmatarr hail/barrage to cut through t2 amarr explosive/kin resistance, void/null to cut through caldari thermal/kin resistance, and scourge fury to cut through gallente kinetic resistance simply because there's a base high resistance? Remember that unless you're tanking specifically for em/therm, amarr cut right through caldari and t1 shield ships. That's a dangerous road, my friend, making exceptions.


I spoke of unique change to lasers specifically. Making them different from other weapon systems because lasers deal damage type that are commonly resisted both in PVP and PVE. For example blasters are in way better situation because they deal kinetic yet they could have also slight resistance penetration. But what comes to projectiles.. Projectiles should not get such treatment because projectile weapon system is capable to deal high damage in wide spectrum same as launchers.

As I also said its mere concept and requires more thought to balance the numbers. But honestly, lasers deal lot of raw damage and its nice weapon system. But I rather had balanced dps output with other weapon systems and pierce that higher resistance we deal with so the raw DPS could be more easily to be compared.

This chance should have most effect on PVP. What comes to T2 hulls, most ships T2 that are flown are cruiser / frigate size. Where speed tank play important role. I have not done the math but I know that some T2 minny hulls have really nutty resistances for EM/therm like 90% native thats freaking crazy! When we are stuck to lasers it does not matter if you can do 1000 DPS because even when you would hit them through the speed tank you only land 100dps. This resistance piercing would work around this not completely but would give amarr at least some chance against such..
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#509 - 2013-04-27 11:38:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
30% buffs have been done before
Cruise Missiles just got about 30% damage increase
Hybrids got a 30% cap reduction in the past.

The problem has to be fixed on the laser stats though
Giving Amarr Ships huge cap regen or huge PG means they can fit everything else and laugh, and Amarr ships suddenly fit Projectiles & are impossible to cap out with Bhalgorns due to their crazy cap regen, or can fit Projectiles & 6*1600mm plates....

So you have to fix the lasers themselves, since the lasers are the broken part. And the Maths supports a 30% chance.


Oh don't you know Amarr new weapon systems are drones and missiles. Fly geddon!
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2013-04-27 14:40:18 UTC
I only suggested 30/30 as a starting point for testing purposes, not this thing that's about to be shoved to live, if reading the CCP posts shows their attitude towards it. Just because other races got a 30% buff, that isn't grounds for us to have the same treatment. Like I said, it was a starting point to be adjusted from. As it sits now, if it even gets adjusted, they have to buff again to find the first semblance of middle-ground on this issue. At least it's a step in the right direction though.


Theia Matova wrote:
Oh don't you know Amarr new weapon systems are drones and missiles. Fly geddon!


The geddon is dead to me. Maybe when it stops banging trashy broads and wallowing in disease we can let it back into the family.
Leskit
Pure Victory
#511 - 2013-04-27 20:19:23 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Leskit wrote:
I fly amarr too...but by extension, you're also asking for minmatarr hail/barrage to cut through t2 amarr explosive/kin resistance, void/null to cut through caldari thermal/kin resistance, and scourge fury to cut through gallente kinetic resistance simply because there's a base high resistance? Remember that unless you're tanking specifically for em/therm, amarr cut right through caldari and t1 shield ships. That's a dangerous road, my friend, making exceptions.


I spoke of unique change to lasers specifically. Making them different from other weapon systems because lasers deal damage type that are commonly resisted both in PVP and PVE. For example blasters are in way better situation because they deal kinetic yet they could have also slight resistance penetration. But what comes to projectiles.. Projectiles should not get such treatment because projectile weapon system is capable to deal high damage in wide spectrum same as launchers.

As I also said its mere concept and requires more thought to balance the numbers. But honestly, lasers deal lot of raw damage and its nice weapon system. But I rather had balanced dps output with other weapon systems and pierce that higher resistance we deal with so the raw DPS could be more easily to be compared.

This chance should have most effect on PVP. What comes to T2 hulls, most ships T2 that are flown are cruiser / frigate size. Where speed tank play important role. I have not done the math but I know that some T2 minny hulls have really nutty resistances for EM/therm like 90% native thats freaking crazy! When we are stuck to lasers it does not matter if you can do 1000 DPS because even when you would hit them through the speed tank you only land 100dps. This resistance piercing would work around this not completely but would give amarr at least some chance against such..


I see what you're getting at. I was also using a bit of an exaggeration to make a point. I'd love to have lasers be a viable weapon system-my only laser ship is a rev-otherwise I fly ham legion and other ham ships. My toon flies minny, and their em resistance (with the resistance bonus) tops 90+%, much like the amarr t2's explosive resistance. I do think the weakest point of making lasers vialbe all-around weapons is their damage type, but I don't think that will ever change. I don't feel it's a huge issue on t1 hulls, but it's really prominent on t2 hulls. Amarr deal the most damage to, ironically, amarr t2 hulls if you don't plug the resist holes. What? I think CCP is balancing towards t1 hulls, not tech 2-3 though, which I feel is an entirely different argument. Perhaps where hams come into amarr lore to shoot kin/exp at minmatar.

last minute thought: the longer you deal a certain damage to someone, perhaps make it lower the resistance the longer you shoot? e.g. burning a hole in that spot on the hull? Random idea, last minute. probly ridiculous. Kinda goes against the idea of a "resistance".
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#512 - 2013-04-27 20:29:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
meh, I should go to sleep instead of writing anything. :-(


That is the first sensible thing you've said in all of the rebalance threads...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#513 - 2013-04-27 21:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Beams are fine , you use beams only in amarr fleets anyway.
What other ships are used in amarr fleets? Yup the guardians , so be a good boy and spam that need cap broadcast button as much as you can ,your logi pilots will love to be usefull for u.Thats why the logis have remote cap bonuses on them in the first place. Do I have to teach you everything ?:O
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#514 - 2013-04-27 22:50:40 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
meh, I should go to sleep instead of writing anything. :-(


That is the first sensible thing you've said in all of the rebalance threads...


That is the first sensible thing you've said in all of the rebalance threads...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#515 - 2013-04-27 23:17:37 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Beams are fine , you use beams only in amarr fleets anyway.
What other ships are used in amarr fleets? Yup the guardians , so be a good boy and spam that need cap broadcast button as much as you can ,your logi pilots will love to be usefull for u.Thats why the logis have remote cap bonuses on them in the first place. Do I have to teach you everything ?:O

No, it's not. They have the remote cap bonus to form cap chains inside the logi. Same as the Basilisk does for shield fleets.... I mean, we are talking shield fleets for a primarily capless gun (well, missiles) using race. Having an identical bonus. So it's pretty obvious the bonus is nothing to do with sustaining lasers & is about sustaining the logi themselves. The fact we as players have taken it to also providing some additional cap to the fleet is a further step.

Lasers are currently broken on PG use and Cap use. And the proposed 'fix' to removing all the cap use bonuses on the BS's really doesn't go far enough.
I applaud CCP for finally removing all those 'not bonus' bonuses on cap use for a ship class, which has truely exposed how poor a position lasers have been in for years like people have been saying. But they simply are not moving it enough.

The Armagedon should be viable to fly with lasers still. So should the prophecy. You 'can' make lousy fits which on paper work sure with unbonused pulse, but not with beams at all. And this is a sign that something is badly wrong. The immediate response should not be 'Well fit 1400 arti and the ship is awesome'
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#516 - 2013-04-28 09:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
...and the forums ate my post. :(

Summary: Lasers are not nearly as badly off as many people are saying. In fact many of them do not need any buffs.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#517 - 2013-04-28 12:01:04 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

Summary: Lasers are not nearly as badly off as many people are saying. In fact many of them do not need any buffs.



Show me. Use notepad and rebuild your post then copy paste it in.
Show me the numbers you are using to say that.

Show me how it's ok on live atm that the Megathron has enough grid for 8 425mm II rails ( yes I know only 7 actually fit ) and a local armor repairer and the Apoc can't even fit 8 Megabeams.

If you want to bring a Gallente character in here and say "Lasers are fine". You better bring a whole lot of math.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#518 - 2013-04-28 12:39:54 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Beams are fine , you use beams only in amarr fleets anyway.
What other ships are used in amarr fleets? Yup the guardians , so be a good boy and spam that need cap broadcast button as much as you can ,your logi pilots will love to be usefull for u.Thats why the logis have remote cap bonuses on them in the first place. Do I have to teach you everything ?:O

No, it's not. They have the remote cap bonus to form cap chains inside the logi. Same as the Basilisk does for shield fleets.... I mean, we are talking shield fleets for a primarily capless gun (well, missiles) using race. Having an identical bonus. So it's pretty obvious the bonus is nothing to do with sustaining lasers & is about sustaining the logi themselves. The fact we as players have taken it to also providing some additional cap to the fleet is a further step.

Lasers are currently broken on PG use and Cap use. And the proposed 'fix' to removing all the cap use bonuses on the BS's really doesn't go far enough.
I applaud CCP for finally removing all those 'not bonus' bonuses on cap use for a ship class, which has truely exposed how poor a position lasers have been in for years like people have been saying. But they simply are not moving it enough.

The Armagedon should be viable to fly with lasers still. So should the prophecy. You 'can' make lousy fits which on paper work sure with unbonused pulse, but not with beams at all. And this is a sign that something is badly wrong. The immediate response should not be 'Well fit 1400 arti and the ship is awesome'

Oh ,maybe you should buy an irony detector, my post was about how absurd the cap use on the lasers weapons.
:)
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#519 - 2013-04-28 12:47:24 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Beams are fine , you use beams only in amarr fleets anyway.
What other ships are used in amarr fleets? Yup the guardians , so be a good boy and spam that need cap broadcast button as much as you can ,your logi pilots will love to be usefull for u.Thats why the logis have remote cap bonuses on them in the first place. Do I have to teach you everything ?:O


I wonder, from the helpful approach you have in your response, if your insinuating that if an Amarr pilot wants to be combat capable and use beam lasers, we cannot do so solo or in small-gangs without a cap repper?

Cause if that's what the devs mean to convey ... that sucks.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2013-04-28 14:00:10 UTC
Regolis wrote:

Show me how it's ok on live atm that the Megathron has enough grid for 8 425mm II rails ( yes I know only 7 actually fit ) and a local armor repairer and the Apoc can't even fit 8 Megabeams.

How things are on live right now doesn't matter. How things fall out after the expac does.

As for how things are afterwards, I'd be more concerned about how the Megathron is given bonuses designed to give it 9+ turret DPS out of 7 turrets, thus effectively giving it that extra low slot. That's going to matter more, IMO.