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Tags4Sec - No Consequences for being a criminal?

Author
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#1 - 2013-04-26 01:12:56 UTC
I watched the Fanfest Stream discussing this new feature that allows criminals and the like to collect or buy tags that can be turned in to raise your Standing/Security Status.

Being a criminal in Eve Online doesn't seem to have any real consequences.

Maintaining a criminal free life in the game doesn't seem to have any real benefits.

It's fun to be the bad guy. I get the appeal. But being the bad guy should come with some long lasting effects. You can harass, grief, murder everyone you see for as long as you want, but CONCORD turns a blind eye simply because you turn in tags, grind out "rats"? It seems so unrealistic and in sole favor to the pirates and griefers.

Doesn't it seem like a silly world where pirates and carebears are essentially one in the same? I know this has essentially been going on since the dawn of Eve but I would like to see some kind of differential between the two. Criminal History perhaps? A little symbol next to someone's Avatar that symbolizes past criminal acts? What's wrong with this? EVE Online just plays like everyone's the bad guy and it just feels wrong...
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#2 - 2013-04-26 01:16:20 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
I watched the Fanfest Stream discussing this new feature that allows criminals and the like to collect or buy tags that can be turned in to raise your Standing/Security Status.

Being a criminal in Eve Online doesn't seem to have any real consequences.

Maintaining a criminal free life in the game doesn't seem to have any real benefits.

It's fun to be the bad guy. I get the appeal. But being the bad guy should come with some long lasting effects. You can harass, grief, murder everyone you see for as long as you want, but CONCORD turns a blind eye simply because you turn in tags, grind out "rats"? It seems so unrealistic and in sole favor to the pirates and griefers.

Doesn't it seem like a silly world where pirates and carebears are essentially one in the same? I know this has essentially been going on since the dawn of Eve but I would like to see some kind of differential between the two. Criminal History perhaps? A little symbol next to someone's Avatar that symbolizes past criminal acts? What's wrong with this? EVE Online just plays like everyone's the bad guy and it just feels wrong...


I kinda agree. Personally, I feel crime should be tracked by the empires and be empire specific (i.e. your a criminal in amarr, the amarr hate you). Not necessarily CONCORD specific.

Secondly, I think that as you build up a history, it should become harder and harder to rebuild your standings, until you are eventually labeled a criminal and that's that. No more of the 'go rat and make money for a day or two and come back, we'll talk'.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-26 01:19:24 UTC
Don't worry.I bet this tags will cost a fortune.

For concord it is like: If you killed our enemys we give you annother chance.... You are not that bad....
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#4 - 2013-04-26 01:20:43 UTC
I don't want the game to change. I like the pirate aspect. I respect the chance to be that guy. But I want to play the pirate hunter. I have been trying to since I started playing and it just doesn't seem to work. It's kind of lame to be the good guy in EVE. They can easily fix this with some variable tweeks.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#5 - 2013-04-26 01:52:39 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
I don't want the game to change. I like the pirate aspect. I respect the chance to be that guy. But I want to play the pirate hunter. I have been trying to since I started playing and it just doesn't seem to work. It's kind of lame to be the good guy in EVE. They can easily fix this with some variable tweeks.


Sucky part is, being the good guy in real life generally sucks, too. No respect, no remorse. Everyone hates you for following the rules, because it's only okay to stop THOSE guys, etc, etc.

And I agree. In game, right now, anti-pirates are nothing more than pirates who keep their security status up higher. There's not much we can do when crime does happen, because either CONCORD popped them, or they warped off after getting the loot. Criminals have the advantage because by the act of the crime, they are making the event happen.

The bounty system mostly fails because most bounties are for *****. Since perfectly respectable individuals can have bounties like everyone else, your not likely to get a suspect flag. The whole flag system is far too regular and predictable to be useful (CCP, please understand the difference between predictable and understandable ... cause it's a lot easier to understand now).

Meh ... just a whole mess of work.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-26 02:03:12 UTC
Well, I'm gonna get started on large arty training for these alts, set up tag orders and stock up on nados. If this is true, it changes everything for highsec ganking. Turnaround time due to sec grind for ganking just came down to zero. Whatever tags cost, loot covers it. Nonstop gank for big profits.Big smile
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#7 - 2013-04-26 04:42:55 UTC
That sounds broken already. I don't see this benefiting the game at all. Pirates are crying about grinding sec status back up? I don't get it. It takes the meaning out of the word "criminal". This needs deeper thought...
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#8 - 2013-04-26 04:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicola Arman
A new icon in Local/Overview for past -5, -10 players.

Symbol (like faction modules/ships) to the top right of each character's portrait who ever reached -5,-10

Something! This get of out jail free card for pirates and gankers is ******* annoying. Don't rework the whole game and what it stands for, but fix the immersion.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#9 - 2013-04-26 05:10:31 UTC
Here's the breakdown:

- Separate each Empire's criminal tracking. Their security status will reflect their status under that empire only, not all of space. So a person who routinely ganks in the Amarr trade hub would be able to fly around and do Gallente missions just fine. A separate tab in their character sheet would reflect their criminal record in other areas.

- If you go negative, you just look like a hood. Police scan you every time you go through a gate. Stations make you wait a few seconds before letting you dock. As long as you stay above negative 2.5, your just a small time nobody who causes trouble and gets dirty looks, but you can easily rat and earn your security back.

- If you go negative 2.5 to 5, your a misdemeanor offender. You've had to do more than one crime. Biggest difference between this and a nobody is that you can only get your sec status back up to positive 5. Once you've had a rep in that empire, you won't be really forgiven.

- Negative 5 to 7.5, your ass is a repeat offender or a felon. The damn turrets actually aim at you every time you go through. You get stopped and scanned at belts. Police cruise by you just to 'check on things'. Stations really make your ass wait, and for some reason, your damn taxes are higher. While the police ain't shooting, you can tell they want to. The highest you can get your standings up to is positive 2.5, and that takes work.

- Negative 7.5 to 9.9, your ass is a most wanted. The empire shoots at you like you've got poor standings. They shoot at you when you go through gates, when you dock, the whole works. They really don't like you. And ratting in their area ain't going to get you much, because the best you can do is 0.0 out.

- Negative 10, public enemy number one. The popo call in the swat team every time you come around, and you know those security status of yours? Yeah, your permablasted to -2.5. Your going to keep that rep.



**** off all four empires to have low enough security, and concord declares you a damn SANSHA and shoots at you on sight.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#10 - 2013-04-26 05:36:43 UTC
Sounds like you get ganked a lot. Learn to defend your self better or look more intimidating or less juicy.
It was put best by
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#11 - 2013-04-26 05:45:40 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sounds like you get ganked a lot. Learn to defend your self better or look more intimidating or less juicy.
It was put best by
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.


That's why every convo I have with a ganker starts off with 'don't be the first person I've killed in four years'.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-04-26 05:49:06 UTC
Just another goonbuff. They realy love their ccp devs.
Whisperen
This is Serious Mum
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-04-26 06:55:44 UTC
Did you really watch the steam? The grind still happens you can just pay someone else to do it. All this is doing is allowing the market (with spawn rate tweaks from ccp) to dictate the value of that behavior.

You want long lasting effects? Record the gankers name, active timezones, people they fly with and forum history etc in your logs.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2013-04-26 07:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nicola Arman wrote:
Being a criminal in Eve Online doesn't seem to have any real consequences.

It does. If you suicide gank, automatic loss of your ship... low sec status complicates logisticals and some combat ops... and the current intention with the the tag4sec system it is to make it cost a VERY pretty penny (CCP is aiming for the cost to be 25 bil to go fom -10 to 0... they will adjust drop rates accordingly).

Nicola Arman wrote:
Maintaining a criminal free life in the game doesn't seem to have any real benefits.

I know that this is in poor taste... but yeah, the same applies to real life.

Nicola Arman wrote:
Doesn't it seem like a silly world where pirates and carebears are essentially one in the same? I know this has essentially been going on since the dawn of Eve but I would like to see some kind of differential between the two. Criminal History perhaps? A little symbol next to someone's Avatar that symbolizes past criminal acts? What's wrong with this? EVE Online just plays like everyone's the bad guy and it just feels wrong...

Why? EVE is based on the idea that everything is a "shade of grey"... a dystopian world where good and evil are more relative than straightforward (remember the phrase, "one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter?").
CCP Sounwave explained this a bit during one of his presentations... that one of the reasons that bounties were allowed to be applied to everyone was because sec status is not a reliable metric for the evil things people do. Some crimes simply can't be penalized mechanically because they are so meta (ex. corp/alliance thefts, spying, giving warp ins to gankers, bumping (New Order anyone?), being a mouth piece for a group, etc) and it is better to allow players to make that distinction themselves (up to a point).

Also remember two things...

- these tags will only be dropped in low-sec... where outlaws lurk.
- null-seccers who go to empire to gank already "circumvent" the system by ratting/plexing in their alliance systems. It's not uncommon for them to go from -8 to positive 2.5 or something in a month and earn a few billion at the same time.
Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2013-04-26 07:23:06 UTC
This is a buff to lowsec, and very welcome one.

You see, fighting in lowsec decreases your security status, even though no crime was committed (two people want to fight, first one to open fire loses sec status)

.

Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-04-26 07:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
ShahFluffers wrote:
CCP is aiming for the cost to be 25 bil to go fom -10 to 0... they will adjust drop rates accordingly.

Was that stated during the main presentation or is there some other source for the 25b figure?

edit: re-watched the presentation and saw this slide: http://i.imgur.com/Oi2TCGA.jpg, which suggests a price of 26.5m to redeem a full set of tags to go from -10.0 to 0.0. No mention of the market value of the tags, though, and of course there's the big warning saying "ISK cost still to be balanced."
Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-04-26 11:18:09 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
I don't get it. It takes the meaning out of the word "criminal".


There is no meaning to the word criminal already. Someone talks about pirate hunting being non-existent in this thread... well, these tags will make pirate hunting viable. Why? Because you'll see a constant demand of these tags and lowseccers farming them up.
Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-04-26 11:19:15 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
(CCP is aiming for the cost to be 25 bil to go fom -10 to 0... they will adjust drop rates accordingly).


Million, not billion, big difference.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-04-26 11:29:49 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
I watched the Fanfest Stream discussing this new feature that allows criminals and the like to collect or buy tags that can be turned in to raise your Standing/Security Status.

Being a criminal in Eve Online doesn't seem to have any real consequences.

Maintaining a criminal free life in the game doesn't seem to have any real benefits.

It's fun to be the bad guy. I get the appeal. But being the bad guy should come with some long lasting effects. You can harass, grief, murder everyone you see for as long as you want, but CONCORD turns a blind eye simply because you turn in tags, grind out "rats"? It seems so unrealistic and in sole favor to the pirates and griefers.

Doesn't it seem like a silly world where pirates and carebears are essentially one in the same? I know this has essentially been going on since the dawn of Eve but I would like to see some kind of differential between the two. Criminal History perhaps? A little symbol next to someone's Avatar that symbolizes past criminal acts? What's wrong with this? EVE Online just plays like everyone's the bad guy and it just feels wrong...



Really rich people getting way with all the nasty **** they do because of how much money they have?

That doesn't sound like the real world at all.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Plyn
Uncharted.
#20 - 2013-04-26 18:41:03 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Here's the breakdown:

- Separate each Empire's criminal tracking. Their security status will reflect their status under that empire only, not all of space. So a person who routinely ganks in the Amarr trade hub would be able to fly around and do Gallente missions just fine. A separate tab in their character sheet would reflect their criminal record in other areas.

- If you go negative, you just look like a hood. Police scan you every time you go through a gate. Stations make you wait a few seconds before letting you dock. As long as you stay above negative 2.5, your just a small time nobody who causes trouble and gets dirty looks, but you can easily rat and earn your security back.

- If you go negative 2.5 to 5, your a misdemeanor offender. You've had to do more than one crime. Biggest difference between this and a nobody is that you can only get your sec status back up to positive 5. Once you've had a rep in that empire, you won't be really forgiven.

- Negative 5 to 7.5, your ass is a repeat offender or a felon. The damn turrets actually aim at you every time you go through. You get stopped and scanned at belts. Police cruise by you just to 'check on things'. Stations really make your ass wait, and for some reason, your damn taxes are higher. While the police ain't shooting, you can tell they want to. The highest you can get your standings up to is positive 2.5, and that takes work.

- Negative 7.5 to 9.9, your ass is a most wanted. The empire shoots at you like you've got poor standings. They shoot at you when you go through gates, when you dock, the whole works. They really don't like you. And ratting in their area ain't going to get you much, because the best you can do is 0.0 out.

- Negative 10, public enemy number one. The popo call in the swat team every time you come around, and you know those security status of yours? Yeah, your permablasted to -2.5. Your going to keep that rep.



**** off all four empires to have low enough security, and concord declares you a damn SANSHA and shoots at you on sight.

0/10
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