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[Odyssey] Navy Battlecruisers

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#381 - 2013-04-22 21:33:45 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
It lacks the Cap and PG of the old cane so that isn't very likely

Power Diagnostic Unit II's ftw.
cheese monkey
NuKeDD
NuKeDD.
#382 - 2013-04-22 22:24:46 UTC
No we do not need another Brutix hull. Change to Myrmidon please (you are going to do it sooner or later)

dakes loosing the resist... going to love tackling one of these... will go down faster than a (insert colourful metaphor)

Hurricane is just... the old hurricane.

Harb is going to be the new SFI ... but insanely more powerful. Goodbye frigates.


This seems like something CCP has just thrown together.... random bonus', not really that well thought out. What are you trying to make CCP? Tiericide is going to HATE this!!


All you had to do was give the drake an extra missile launcher.

If you wanted to go tracking then make the hurricane and harb both have tracking bonus'

Finally, make sure you use the myrm hull and just let it field 5 ogres like the good old days.

Not Hard.

--

http://eveboard.com/ub/627817229-39.png
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#383 - 2013-04-23 01:30:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
So the harbinger gets 50% dmg AND a tracking bonus, the brutix gets 50% dmg AND a tracking bonus, the hurricane gets.... 25% ROF, 25% dmg..... something seem off here?



The HUrricane is far far far inferior to the other Navy cruisers. It got its only slot back but not all its old PG. So it basically cannot fit properly that slot.

Its simply a wasted time and effort that ship. The masses of whiners cryign nerf nerf nerf to minmatar on these years made that.. made CCP as ALWAYS overreact.


Been having a play with Theory-crafting each of these in EVE HQ, will have to check them out on SiSi (if they're up there) but for the most part the Hurricane, Harbinger and Drake essentially are a return to the way they were pre-balance.

Now you can whine that the "Hurricane isn't as good as it used to be", but with the extra low it provide you with the ability to have an extra Gyro or a Tracking Enhancer - this actually brings it in-line with the others.
Also keep in mind that with the base Shield / Armour / Structure, the defence capabilities it has lend itself well to being an extremely good Kiting Ship; as without plates you can get it up to 580 DPS (standard) - 55,000 eHP (in eve) - 1.3k / sec (based mwd) with 6x 425 + 2 Medium Neuts ... that to me is actually puts it pretty on-part with how it used to be with a little wiggle room for Damage or Tracking.

So honestly it is a very good ship, when you stack it against the other ships it is actually quite well balanced between Speed, Defensive and Offensive.

In-fact I would say the odd one out, that is likely skewing how people are looking at this is the Brutix.
First of all it is completely out of place as all the rest are Tier 2 Battlecruiser, where-as the Brutix is the Tier 1... Seriously CCP Fozzie, it should be a Navy Issue Myrmidon.

Secondly the Brutix (well the Gallente ships on the whole) is Over-Powered as Hell.
Why? Because unlike the others that have their Over-Powered Focus with a Serious Downside (e.g. Drake Navy Issues has an Incredible Defence, but the lowest DPS and Fairly Average Speed) ...

The Brutix does everything just far too well. In-fact it breaks 1.1k DPS, 1.2k m/s, 60k eHP with still more mid-slots than you realistically need.

If the Brutix is going to have incredibly damage that needs to be tempered by having poor range dictation and poor speed (which seriously THAT is what the Gallente is known for, being slow with a hard punch)

This is actually the same problem many of the Gallente ships are falling in to right now, and I'm not sure CCP Fozzie while he has done great work on the other ships; doesn't quite get the point in "Perfect Imbalance".

What I mean by that is at the basics, perfect Imbalance works like a Rock-Paper-Scissors setup.
Ship A - beats - Ship B
Ship B - beats - Ship C
Ship C - beats - Ship A

Obviously with EVE you have 4 Races, so ends up a bit more complicated than that; but you're looking at the intangible differences between the Races / Ships to act as your baseline.

Right now the Minmatar, Caldari and Amarr are actually quite well balanced in this way against each other.
As Minmatar > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar, it works well - this leaves the Gallente out in the cold with the solution from Fozzie being "Well Gallente > Everyone" ... but that causes nothing but issues causing them to be Flavour of the Month (or well Balance)

Now I do agree the Gallente, outside of Capitals were for a very long time a very under-used race (ship wise) because they were difficult to get or keep in Range to apply their damage; but then that is WHY they use Drones.

Seriously I believe that the Gallente should focus more on being a more pure Drone focused race, with Drones becoming a Primary Weapon System just like Hybrids, Launchers, Lasers and Projectiles. You can say "Well Drones are easy to get destroyed" but think of it like this ... if the ship Bonus' were drone based, with the Drones getting Extra HP, Damage, Speed or even perhaps extra Drones they can use.

They become basically a Mini-Carrier Race, Drones aren't any different to any other Ammo Type really.
At the same time basically removing Drones from a large number of other racial ships... because seriously they are a bad mechanic to have as "additional to ..." because they are server intensive in big groups, and frankly over-powered when you have enough of them with realistically very little past Smartbombs (which aren't exactly useful outside of killing drones or sat on a bubble)

CCP Soundwave said that you guys wants to expand gameplay styles instead of returning to the Power Creep design of before, seriously you have the gameplay elements there to make interesting new and unique gameplay styles that right now are just not being used as such. Everything you need is already in the game, you just have to look at it from a different perspective.
cheese monkey
NuKeDD
NuKeDD.
#384 - 2013-04-23 05:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: cheese monkey
The player base wants the Myrmidon Hull.

CCP wants the Brutix Hull.

Guess who will win?

One day CCP will realize who owns this game the hard way.

--

http://eveboard.com/ub/627817229-39.png
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#385 - 2013-04-23 07:00:27 UTC
cheese monkey wrote:
The player base wants the Myrmidon Hull.

CCP wants the Brutix Hull.

Guess who will win?

One day they will realize who owns this game the hard way.


We know, doesn't mean we can't tell them they're being ******** though.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#386 - 2013-04-23 14:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
cheese monkey wrote:
The player base wants the Myrmidon Hull.

CCP wants the Brutix Hull.

Guess who will win?

One day CCP will realize who owns this game the hard way.

I want the Brutix hull. Put the Myrm hull on the Eos. (Maybe there aren't enough high slots on the current Myrm hull graphics and that's why they went with the Brutix)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#387 - 2013-04-23 14:33:47 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:

Right now the Minmatar, Caldari and Amarr are actually quite well balanced in this way against each other.
As Minmatar > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar, it works well - this leaves the Gallente out in the cold with the solution from Fozzie being "Well Gallente > Everyone" ... but that causes nothing but issues causing them to be Flavour of the Month (or well Balance)

Huh? Vexors are really tough nuts, not so sure about the other Gallente hulls. I'd love to hear the analysis that puts Gallente frigates above Caldari and Minmatar frigs. And the one where the Gallente BCs are better than other race's BCs.




Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#388 - 2013-04-23 14:39:45 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Recoil IV wrote:
So the harbinger gets 50% dmg AND a tracking bonus, the brutix gets 50% dmg AND a tracking bonus, the hurricane gets.... 25% ROF, 25% dmg..... something seem off here?



The HUrricane is far far far inferior to the other Navy cruisers. It got its only slot back but not all its old PG. So it basically cannot fit properly that slot.

Its simply a wasted time and effort that ship. The masses of whiners cryign nerf nerf nerf to minmatar on these years made that.. made CCP as ALWAYS overreact.


Been having a play with Theory-crafting each of these in EVE HQ, will have to check them out on SiSi (if they're up there) but for the most part the Hurricane, Harbinger and Drake essentially are a return to the way they were pre-balance.

Now you can whine that the "Hurricane isn't as good as it used to be", but with the extra low it provide you with the ability to have an extra Gyro or a Tracking Enhancer - this actually brings it in-line with the others.
Also keep in mind that with the base Shield / Armour / Structure, the defence capabilities it has lend itself well to being an extremely good Kiting Ship; as without plates you can get it up to 580 DPS (standard) - 55,000 eHP (in eve) - 1.3k / sec (based mwd) with 6x 425 + 2 Medium Neuts ... that to me is actually puts it pretty on-part with how it used to be with a little wiggle room for Damage or Tracking.

.



WHAt extra low? are you drunk? It has 6 lows.. as the normal cane!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2013-04-24 10:12:42 UTC
Funny when I prompt someoen to count.. and they realyze they have bbeen defendign a ship based on a fetuare that doe snot exist.. the responses stop...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#390 - 2013-04-24 15:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
That Drake makes me say "jesus christ this thing is crazy"

Awesome slot layout, number of hard points etc etc.

Harby looks fine, can even get a nice gankalol shield tank fit !!

That Cane!!! -I don't understand why some are crying about, 6 autocanons+2 HAM launchers with good skills and a bit of testing that thing will most probably be able to dish and apply huge amounts of dps while having a heck of a tank be ti armor or cookie cutter shield.
Hell even if you put 2 neuts instead of 2 launchers this Cane is really fecking awesome (without missile support+spec skills don't even think about it). For those saying it's only the old Cane, well the "old" cane was clearly OP and did never deserved the standard flag but the "winmatar" one, believe me or not I've flow lots of them and I'm very happy with the new T1 cane is in line with the other ones.

I'm fine with these 3 above, however I'm a little bit disappointed Brutix didn't got a 7th turret but I can perfectly understand also the 10% ROF on 6 guns is a higher dps bonus than 5% on 7 turrets, I'm just doing my childish thing "me wants"

4 mids is ok, prop tackle and cap injector to support local reps or add some other stuff like double web or ewar like tracking disruptor or even sebo for sniping fits -lol snipe with it before med rails get a big dps ass kick

7 lows is perfect for either local tanking or buffer fits on this ship size and on top, 50M3 of Drones is fantastic, offers options for dps ewar or even light logisitcs, really good imho

Overall this seems quite reasonable as new Navy ships and bonus, not completely op nor sub, they all seem interesting but I might be missing something.

NB: erm, Fozzie? -do you think there's something you can do about med rails or do you think after internal testing this rof bonus change instead of dmg will make them better?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2013-04-24 15:22:06 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That Drake makes me say "jesus christ this thing is crazy"

Awesome slot layout, number of hard points etc etc.

Harby looks fine, can even get a nice gankalol shield tank fit !!

That Cane!!! -I don't understand why some are crying about, 6 autocanons+2 HAM launchers with good skills and a bit of testing that thing will most probably be able to dish and apply huge amounts of dps while having a heck of a tank be ti armor or cookie cutter shield.
Hell even if you put 2 neuts instead of 2 launchers this Cane is really fecking awesome (without missile support+spec skills don't even think about it). For those saying it's only the old Cane, well the "old" cane was clearly OP and did never deserved the standard flag but the "winmatar" one, believe me or not I've flow lots of them and I'm very happy with the new T1 cane is in line with the other ones.

I'm fine with these 3 above, however I'm a little bit disappointed Brutix didn't got a 7th turret but I can perfectly understand also the 10% ROF on 6 guns is a higher dps bonus than 5% on 7 turrets, I'm just doing my childish thing "me wants"

4 mids is ok, prop tackle and cap injector to support local reps or add some other stuff like double web or ewar like tracking disruptor or even sebo for sniping fits -lol snipe with it before med rails get a big dps ass kick

7 lows is perfect for either local tanking or buffer fits on this ship size and on top, 50M3 of Drones is fantastic, offers options for dps ewar or even light logisitcs, really good imho

Overall this seems quite reasonable as new Navy ships and bonus, not completely op nor sub, they all seem interesting but I might be missing something.

NB: erm, Fozzie? -do you think there's something you can do about med rails or do you think after internal testing this rof bonus change instead of dmg will make them better?



check the fittings. The cane got its hiugh slot back but not the PG. Its ALMOST impossible to fit 2 neuts without gimping yourself completely.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#392 - 2013-04-25 06:18:53 UTC
I still want to see a Navy Myrm. Hybrid optimal and falloff range remains a serious issue, especially compared to the other turret types. Add a drone control range bonus to it as well. It is ok to have more than a few good drone boats, especially when there are no good T1 drone boats besides the domi, which has no range bonus.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#393 - 2013-04-25 10:47:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Why choosing the Brutix instead of the Myrmidon as a Navy hull?

    • Internal discussion resulted in favor of the Brutix since we felt it represented the Gallente combat doctrine more accurately with close range hybrids. A Myrmidon Navy Issue could also have been problematic to balance without overstepping on the Dominix, Vexor Navy Issue or even turret ships.


    I disagree here. There's nothing that says a Myrmidon Navy Issue has to be a drone ship (and it shouldn't be).

    The Augoror Navy Issue is hardly a logistics ship, for example.

    A hybrid-based Myrmidon Navy Issue would actually be really cool.
    Drunken Bum
    #394 - 2013-04-26 01:43:02 UTC
    So they havent come to their senses and they still plan on releasing these huh. Releasing a bunch of poorly thought out hulls is exactly the right direction this game needs while you guys do ship rebalancing. GJ.

    After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
    Veshta Yoshida
    PIE Inc.
    Khimi Harar
    #395 - 2013-04-26 06:55:17 UTC
    cheese monkey wrote:
    ...Harb is going to be the new SFI ... but insanely more powerful. Goodbye frigates...

    How do you figure, the smallest bore medium pulse has 10-15% worse tracking than the largest bore autocannon .. the kicker is the five mids, that is what will make people die in droves. Full tackle, injector, prop and still a slot open .. fitting is irrelevant as you can boost grid/cpu with implants, rigs and mods.
    That fifth midslot makes it a shield gank ship, perfect fight control brawler, dampening kiter .. you name it. You shouldn't run because it has tracking, but because you have no idea what you are facing until death has you in his clammy grip!
    Drunken Bum wrote:
    So they havent come to their senses and they still plan on releasing these huh. Releasing a bunch of poorly thought out hulls is exactly the right direction this game needs while you guys do ship rebalancing. GJ.

    What more would you like? They already have a hefty bump in EHP over vanilla BC and are just one slot short of th BS .. perhaps you were expecting stupidly OP hulls that could be blobbed ad nauseum by the owners of the FW alt farmers (*glances at null*).

    If you just want OP BC's, then skip the navy hulls and wait patiently (yes, it is a word/concept) for the pirate BC's .. they are by definition a step up from navy and with navy being borderline ...
    Patric St Secheh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #396 - 2013-04-26 06:59:56 UTC
    Vladimir Norkoff wrote:

    Errr.... You people do realize that this Navy Harb got an additional mid slot and more grid, right? So you can fit a cap booster in addition to your old fit. And last I checked, cap booster > no booster in PvP. So this is much much better than the cap bonus. But I'm sure if you whine and cry enough they can swap the tracking bonus for your old cap bonus, and then you can fit a tracking computer in the mid to get your tracking... :-/

    Back in the day Ivy League actually taught players not to be complete idiots. What happened?



    You are perfectly right - you are just the best income redistribution service man in all universe. Apologize for our blindness...
    Emily Jean McKenna
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #397 - 2013-04-26 08:11:37 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:
    cheese monkey wrote:
    The player base wants the Myrmidon Hull.

    CCP wants the Brutix Hull.

    Guess who will win?

    One day CCP will realize who owns this game the hard way.

    I want the Brutix hull. Put the Myrm hull on the Eos. (Maybe there aren't enough high slots on the current Myrm hull graphics and that's why they went with the Brutix)


    They went with the Brutix because the Myrm didnt exist when the Eos was made.
    Kaiden krios
    Mangueireiros
    #398 - 2013-04-26 16:06:43 UTC
    Sorry to say but, the Hurricane is just my old Hurricane, but more expensive... and with other colors... When i dreamed with a Navy Version, i thought on something... better.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #399 - 2013-04-26 16:31:07 UTC
    Kaiden krios wrote:
    Sorry to say but, the Hurricane is just my old Hurricane, but more expensive... and with other colors... ...

    and lots more EHP....
    Fade Azura
    Weaponized Autists Cartel
    #400 - 2013-04-26 19:10:59 UTC
    the brutix with a tracking bonus instead of the rep bonus was a nice move. gj