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FEDERATION DENIES REPUBLIC REQUEST FOR EXTRADITION OF SHOOTER

Author
Anslo
Scope Works
#21 - 2013-04-26 15:57:42 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Another thing I find puzzling are some of the statements made by the Federal Supreme Court. Why would our courts be any less able to operate a fair trial or, to find unbiased jurors than Federation courts? It's this kind of patronizing and insulting attitude that frustrates people and gives fuel to the extremists like the Bloody Hand.


They could have worded it a better way but I see where they're coming from. Emotions are pretty high in the Republic. The Fed focuses on innocent until proven guilty. That's why we use completely neutral parties for our trials so that they make honest and unbiased judgement based on facts only, no emotions or anything to sway them. But honestly, I don't see how he could be shown as innocent, like at all.

But in the Republic, I think the Court is worried that his trial might be rather quick and condemning without due process. That's not to say the Republic HAS to do trials our way, they can do whatever.

BUT. Since it DID happen on Federal soil, I can see why they'd want it held in the Fed. Still no excuse for stone walling the Republic though.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#22 - 2013-04-26 15:58:27 UTC
I do find it odd that the same new organizations that can report on the Empress' latest headache cannot tell us anything about a shooter who's committed mass murder and been in custody for over a week.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#23 - 2013-04-26 15:59:57 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Another thing I find puzzling are some of the statements made by the Federal Supreme Court. Why would our courts be any less able to operate a fair trial or, to find unbiased jurors than Federation courts? It's this kind of patronizing and insulting attitude that frustrates people and gives fuel to the extremists like the Bloody Hand.


They could have worded it a better way but I see where they're coming from. Emotions are pretty high in the Republic. The Fed focuses on innocent until proven guilty. That's why we use completely neutral parties for our trials so that they make honest and unbiased judgement based on facts only, no emotions or anything to sway them. But honestly, I don't see how he could be shown as innocent, like at all.

But in the Republic, I think the Court is worried that his trial might be rather quick and condemning without due process. That's not to say the Republic HAS to do trials our way, they can do whatever.

BUT. Since it DID happen on Federal soil, I can see why they'd want it held in the Fed. Still no excuse for stone walling the Republic though.


And then, the courts publically set them on fire with noise activated methods.

Emotions are obviously lower in the Federation, where crime is concerned.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#24 - 2013-04-26 16:05:24 UTC
It seems that -- all vitriol aside -- that the Federation is doing much as we have suspected it would. It will investigate and try the suspect on its own soil, and by its own laws. This isn't surprising. What is surprising is the confrontational -- even antagonistic -- tone of Federation authorities, when they could do so much to repair relations with the Republic by being conciliatory, by sharing what information they have.

Perhaps it isn't surprising, though. The various nations' governments have all come to power in a time of conflict, a time of war. In many cases, they came into power by explicitly inflaming the passion of their population. When all you have is a hammer...

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Anslo
Scope Works
#25 - 2013-04-26 16:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Looking back, I'm sure a lot of people weren't exactly proud that he was killed that way. So yeah, it's hypocritical. Sorry if it came off that way. Just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate in case someone tries to report me as some anti-Fed terrorist who needs to 'disappear.'

Point stands though that the Court's should be actively updating the Republic on the current status of the investigation. It's not like the Republic would break ties with the Federation if it was a racist nut job. Every Empire has them. If he is, and he's found guilty (which he will be I bet), then he'll be punished severely. Why can't the Fed Court's let the Republic know what's up?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
#26 - 2013-04-26 16:16:24 UTC
It is not right that the Federal authorities have not released more details about the suspect, or the circumstances surrounding the attack.

I hope that this can be corrected as soon as possible.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#27 - 2013-04-26 16:43:25 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
This is the first that I have heard that the victims were exclusively Minmatar? When was the Federation planning on sharing this?


Do NOT commit the error of selective reading and/or taking rhetoric as full truths. Sanmatar Shakor is saying that the attack against the Ray of Matar was by extension an attack on the Minmatar people, NOT that the victims were exclusively Minmatar.

Read the entire article. The Supreme Court has said...

"This was a crime committed by a Federation citizen on Federation soil with a majority of Federation victims"



That could very simply mean that most of the Minmatar victims were Federation citizens. It in no way excludes the possibility, which the article implies, that the victims were all Minmatar.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#28 - 2013-04-26 16:55:26 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Looking back, I'm sure a lot of people weren't exactly proud that he was killed that way. So yeah, it's hypocritical. Sorry if it came off that way. Just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate in case someone tries to report me as some anti-Fed terrorist who needs to 'disappear.'

Point stands though that the Court's should be actively updating the Republic on the current status of the investigation. It's not like the Republic would break ties with the Federation if it was a racist nut job. Every Empire has them. If he is, and he's found guilty (which he will be I bet), then he'll be punished severely. Why can't the Fed Court's let the Republic know what's up?


Honey, I sincerely hope that simple dissenting words do not really get one labelled as "someone who needs to disappear" in a nation which prides itself on freedom of speech.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Anslo
Scope Works
#29 - 2013-04-26 17:02:36 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Honey, I sincerely hope that simple dissenting words do not really get one labelled as "someone who needs to disappear" in a nation which prides itself on freedom of speech.


Well apparently some 'high profile' people think I'm an anti-federalist and well, rumors love to travel. Maybe I'll be asked to submit to 'peaceful questioning.'

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2013-04-26 17:20:40 UTC
Obstinacy to the point of inciting your allies to violence. It's almost as if the Federation has something to hide.
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-04-26 17:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Heinel Coventina
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
I suppose the problem here is that we tend to use 'minmatar' as synonymous with 'citizen of the Republic.'

The majority of the victims were Federation citizens, but some where visiting Republicans.
All of the victims of were ethnic Minmatar.

The assertion that they were all 'members of a tribe' is questionable. I believe Sanmatar Maleatu Shakor is assuming that all Minmatar within the Federation identify as the members of a tribe or are part of their ancestral tribe by default. I doubt the good Sanmatar can speak for all of the victims in this matter.

If the shooter is executed, would that be justice in the eyes of the Republic?

And do we know anything yet about whatever larger organization he might have been part of?



That is interesting though. Assuming that a bigger group is indeed behind the shooting. Killing the gunman as quickly as possible would guarantee they get off the hook. In a way, they had failed this coup, not sending a suicide bomber. Maybe they couldn't find someone with the zeal to suicide gank the Ray of Matar? They probably hadn't imagined their pawn would turn against them by seeking help and shelter from federation officials. What a twist.

Anyone who demands swift justice at this moment are themselves instant suspects. They have already made themselves known, is it the terrorists? Only if they could command the RSS.

Situation going forward shall be fun. Let's see what a desperate Brutor can do.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#32 - 2013-04-26 18:36:19 UTC
What bothers me about this case is the increasing likelihood that the SDII is running this investigation. Given how they really enjoy their fetish for secrecy we may hear something... in 30 years when the label of secrecy wears out. This is highly bothersome for it's obvious effects both on Federation subjects who wants to know what the hell is going on and why this happened, and our Republic allies who are understandably angry with this. I do not even know the disposition of those hurt or killed in this incident - I have seen no information on how many involved where ethnic Minmatar, or even how many were citizens of what nation - all we know is that many Republicans and Federals have been killed or wounded.

The Supreme Court stated that the majority was Federation citizens, and Shakor stated that all the visiting Republicans were Matari with tribe and clan affiliations, who visited friends and family in the Federation. So we can likely assume that many - if not most - of the Federal subjects were ethnic Matari - most if not all also having tribe and clan affiliations of one stripe or another. But again, we don't know anything of this for sure.

To run the investigation and the due process on Federation soil is understandable, to not release any information at all is suspect in the extreme and only helps to fuel people's anger, mistrust and a host of unhealthy conspiracy theories.

Like this:

Karmilla Strife wrote:
Obstinacy to the point of inciting your allies to violence. It's almost as if the Federation has something to hide.


Why not start yelling it from the roof-tops, "I think the Federation did it and are hiding their own man from behind a sham-investigation" hmm? You either fail miserably in being subtle in your beliefs or you succeed greatly in being ambiguous to the point of easy misunderstanding.

I've heard many of these, claiming it was a Federation inside job, Republic inside job (Specifically that Shakor ordered it for his own good) and even a number of theories involving the new clone soldiers. We have no facts. People love to make up their own regardless of how it feeds people's fears and sows discord.

And then we have the usual "I love to rub salt in he wounds now that things are going badly between Federation and Republic" from the likes of Caine and Halete.

Angels are never far... so they will be there to remind you they still exist, by offering their worthless input in manners that don't concern them.

Anslo wrote:
So being a Federation matter means not sharing anything with the Republic? Not even info?

"Oh but how do YOU know they aren't sharing Anslo? How could you ever know? Ho ho ho."

Because I don't think the Minmatar would be getting so worked up to the point of openly threatening potentially violent retribution if we had told them at least something to help sooth their concerns regarding the investigation.


To be perfectly fair the only ones threatening open violence and reactions for this are extremists and known terrorists, official Republican parties has threatened nothing at all and besides one heated and ill-considered move over the border has done nothing violent so far. Even in the heat of passion in the border they seemed highly reluctant to do anything violent, and backed down when it was clear they would not get their way without resorting to it.

I honestly hope we get any kind of official response on this information blockade soon. Even knowing why they insist on not saying anything at all would be helpful, at least then we would know why no info is being shared. This current situation is unreasonable.
Anslo
Scope Works
#33 - 2013-04-26 18:47:26 UTC
Quote:
To be perfectly fair the only ones threatening open violence and reactions for this are extremists and known terrorists, official Republican parties has threatened nothing at all and besides one heated and ill-considered move over the border has done nothing violent so far. Even in the heat of passion in the border they seemed highly reluctant to do anything violent, and backed down when it was clear they would not get their way without resorting to it.


Well yes the Republic authorities aren't threatening anything this is true. But the fact is that threats FROM the Republic are coming to us at all is what what concerns me. Just give some info. It doesn't have to be sensitive. ANYTHING would help. And you are right, the RSS was reluctant to engage. They didn't want to open fire. No one did. But the fact that the situation even evolved into that is...well...dammit it could have been avoided.

Quote:
I honestly hope we get any kind of official response on this information blockade soon. Even knowing why they insist on not saying anything at all would be helpful, at least then we would know why no info is being shared. This current situation is unreasonable.


Also the fact that there's an information block at all throws dirt in the face of what the Federation is supposed to stand for. I'm with you 100% that this situation is nothing but bad news.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Shiho Weitong
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-04-26 19:15:15 UTC
This episode is getting more and more out of proportions.

The republic is making demands when they should keep their mouth shut.
The federation is keeping their mouth shut, when they should be sharing information.
Radicals are trying to turn this into bloodshed, and might very well succeed.
This case will spin completely out of control, If we get a statement from the shooter, that he was hired by someone in the republic.

The death of 58 civilians is a horrible thing. It's even more horrible that it's being politicized. It seems that there are 2 governments involved that care more for saving face, than serving their people.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-04-26 20:56:41 UTC
I was a little irked when this first happened and the Republic started issuing demands, but I certainly don't see this as a case where the Republic should "keep their mouth shut". If Souro Foiritan was visiting the Republic and fell victim to a mass shooting, you can be sure the Federation would at the very least want to participate in the investigation.

Which is where this all sits, in my opinion. Who is this gunman? Why did he do it? Who was he working with? What is their agenda? The Federation doesn't exactly have a great track record recently for this sort of investigation, instead focusing (as Starfire pointed out) on vengeance. It's kind of funny that many of the Federation supporters defending the current blackout on information about the shooter seem to feel that the Republic simply wants to string the guy up. Shakor isn't a fool. If I were him, I'd want to make sure that Republic investigators were involved with every stage of the investigation.

I suspect this is what it's all about.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-04-26 20:57:24 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Well apparently some 'high profile' people think I'm an anti-federalist and well, rumors love to travel. Maybe I'll be asked to submit to 'peaceful questioning.'


Give me a ring some time, I'd like to talk to you about this.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#37 - 2013-04-27 01:10:44 UTC
Anslo wrote:
So being a Federation matter means not sharing anything with the Republic? Not even info?

"Oh but how do YOU know they aren't sharing Anslo? How could you ever know? Ho ho ho."

Because I don't think the Minmatar would be getting so worked up to the point of openly threatening potentially violent retribution if we had told them at least something to help sooth their concerns regarding the investigation.


Allies don’t threaten to kill you when they don’t get their way.

Its about time the Federation saw the Tribal entity for what it is. A gaggle of ungrateful beggars who can’t be trusted!
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#38 - 2013-04-27 01:23:44 UTC
Releasing to much information into the media can sometimes lead to public hysteria, probably mean the individual would not be able to get a fair trial.

It sounds like there is going to be court case , so i guess the individual is pleading not guilty !
Dahacai Laguz
Rust Creeps
#39 - 2013-04-27 02:34:21 UTC
Ah yes, is this a sign that we'll soon receive some Matari guests?
If so, we'll naturally welcome them with open arms and make sure they never want to leave our veridian domain.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-04-27 04:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Obstinacy to the point of inciting your allies to violence. It's almost as if the Federation has something to hide.


We might be hiding something, but what about the Republic? Less than 24 hours after the shooting and a sizable Minmatar fleet was already trying to invade Federation Hi-security space. Now everyone with a gun in the Republic is threatening to strike back against the Federation.

One of us is clearly hiding something, and to me it seems the nation that is willing to cause more violence and potentially lose an ally in the process is probably hiding more.

James Syagrius wrote:


Its about time the Federation saw the Tribal entity for what it is. A gaggle of ungrateful beggars who can’t be trusted!


The Minmatar are still our allies and friends, even if they are a tad bit more aggressive than we are.

Hopefully these extremist groups don't speak for the whole of the Republic, for if that were the case your words might hold a little merit.

Ava Starfire wrote:


And then, the courts publically set them on fire with noise activated methods.

Emotions are obviously lower in the Federation, where crime is concerned.


It's quite difficult to compare the punishment of a terrorist that killed and injured scores of people and gave himself up, to that of a traitor that caused the loss of a planet, the collapse of a political career, assisted a crazed war hungry dictator, and of course the hundreds of millions of lives lost in the fighting that would result over the years as a result of his actions.

His punishment was just, there could be no remorse for what he did, only indifference at the very least. His death if anything wasn't gruesome enough. The blood and fire that erupted from his body was an inconceivable fraction compared to the fires he started and the blood he spilled.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!