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Gate Insta-Death Camps - Am I Missing Something?
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iPod Nubz
7-2 Ronin
#41 - 2013-04-26 05:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: iPod Nubz
Todath Narod wrote:

The proc as fitted has 20k hp. With the resists and the adaptive (assuming its engaged) the EHP would be higher, no?

Use of the term tank in reference to the proc is a general term that many veterans have used. The HP showing on the fittings screen is 20k. Are you saying the EHP is lower?


No, the EHP is Higher than the actual HP. I believe however that you mean EHP and not HP, because for the love of god, i did the sacrilege of trying to fit this **** mining ship (a first) and the only way to get to 20k net HP is by going way, WAY over powergrid. Fitted as per your little information you gave (i didn't fit the stabs because it would've melted my PC and deleted my eve accounts with it)

Please see attached image:
impossible fitting in EFT

Todath Narod wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
3. had adaptive invul and 2 rigs for resists.


Just to be clear about something: That ain't a tank.


Thanks for that clarification. Its seems to me in game terms its a passive tank, but I agree: a real tank has shield and armor tanking modules.


Don't, just.... DON'T you ever mention dual tanking a ship. Shield, or armor. not AND!
What the poster meant was that 20k (e)HP is laughable at best. it's not what he interprets as a "tank". Especially not when dipping solo into unknown lowsec systems.

Todath Narod wrote:


2 Scrams seems to me unlikely at a gate camp because, unless I am mistaken where people pop out of a gate is variable to about 9km I think. So you would have to have a lot of ships to cover the sphere of probability there. Im more concerned about bubbles - but I really don't know much about that. But, you are right, the math says 2 scrams beats 2 stabs. In fact, 1 scram and 1 destab beats 2 stabs.

And I agree with you and the other poster who said this. It is a system I would like to mine regularly as it would fill all of my rares needs, and positioning an alt about 150km from the gate seems to me like a great and fast way to see the gate camp before I go in. And just to be clear - if I see it, I'm not going in. Blink


Just to be clear he said the same than you. You might have misunderstood him.
However:
2 stabs are good for nothing except "maybe" get away from a "loner" ganker, unless he has a faction scram. Against a gatecamp of a gang, your 2 stabs won't help derp. Scram has 9km range, yip, you're right.
But if its a gang, 3 people using disruptors and you're toast. there, easy.
Also, people camp with OGB alts. and faction scrams. Or a lachesis. Hell, any proper camp, even of 2-4 people will have like 5-9 point strengths on you.
If they don't then you get lucky.

8 seconds is an eternity to warp.

SOLUTION: Stay the hell out of low/null sec
The question asked and answer you were looking for:
You did a LOT wrong, but regardless of if you would have done everything right, you would still have died to that gatecamp.
Simple.

Venture would've been better because of natural +2 stab strength. however, ventures warp too slow, still. I usually juust blap them due to their little to non-existent tank.
Use a scout. a second character, man, jump into the system before your main, look around, then bring in main.
Also:

DO NOT USE A NOOBSHIP! EVER!!!!!
Buy a SHUTTLE!
I don't know where this myth started that leads everybody to believe noobships warp as quickly as shuttles. Shuttle is virtually impossible to lock. A Noobship can be locked by a solo BC even, depending on fit.


Now that you have your answers, /thread.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-04-26 06:36:55 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
There was no lock warning, meaning insta-lock


Do you happen to have your "Auto Target Back" option set to anything else than 0? It is common for new players to misunderstand the locking effect when you auto-target back the opponent (who has already locked you) as some kind of an indicator of the opponent attempting to lock you.

In this game, there is no warning when someone is trying to lock you. When he is yellow (or red) box, you are already locked.

If you want to disable Auto Target Back, you can find it in the middle section of the General Settings tab. Set it to 0.
feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#43 - 2013-04-26 09:38:38 UTC
If you subscribe to 2 new accounts, buy two titan characters from the character bazaar and two titans, setup large POSs in both a lowsec entry system and your mining system of choice, you can bridge your procurer straight in and out with minimal risk.

It may be worth claiming sovereignty in any surrounding/close by nullsec space as well to make it more secure, and perhaps have a few more accounts to gatecamp the lowsec entry.

This should somewhat mitigate the chance of being killed on a gate, but just in case I would fit every ship with as many stabs as possible, including the titans.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#44 - 2013-04-26 12:19:13 UTC
412nv Yaken wrote:

Answer:

Your stabs will do nothing if you have more than 2 people land a scram, also you align time will do nothing, if there fast lock has webs.

Once you have jumped into the gatecamp there is no way to survive in the ship you are in. Scout ahead is the only thing that can be suggested.



Thanks for your concise, and I believe correct, answer.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#45 - 2013-04-26 12:21:25 UTC
Lambert Simnel wrote:


Go for 250kms plus. A sniper nado can easily reach over 100kms and pop your scout if, for whatever reason, they are decloaked. You will still be able to see anyone on-grid at the gate.


Thanks for catching my mistake. After I posted I thought 225km would be better - just on the general notion that it seemed to me possible given what I know that one could be targetted and destroyed within 200km of a completely tricked out ship fitted for the purpose.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#46 - 2013-04-26 12:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Todath Narod
Katie Frost wrote:

Firstly, thanks for quoting and responding to probably the most irrelevant parts of my post and ignoring the rest. I can try and get into the semantics of the use of the term "puzzled" with someone that put "Am I missing something?" in the topic and refers in several instances to "wondering" as to why something happened; your general stance is one of confusion seeking a confirmation on the events that transpired - therefore yes, puzzled. You are missing a piece, or several pieces of the puzzle and people have filled the rest of it in for you. If this was not your stance then this thread is merely a rant and should be closed.

Secondly, the tank is of even less relevance. You could have had 100k HP (or EHP), when you had no means to escaping the situation you were in. 5 Battlecruisers locking a Procurer means 5 potential points of warp distruption versus 2 points of warp stabilisation that your ship had. The distance is likewise irrelevant (to an extent), because a BC sitting zero on the gate will be able to lock and warp disrupt you no matter where you de-cloaked (you are generally almost always within the ~24km radius).

P.S. Warp Disruption Fields (Bubbles) are not deployable in low sec.



Read the "Conclusion" part of the originating post- which clearly indicates lack of puzzlement on the outcome. Purpose of thread was to verify the conclusion with the experience and knowledge of people like you. Nuff said.

Don't have to worry about bubbles in low, now. Thanks.

Never had a chance to find out whether or not any of the gankers had scrams or destabs since the ship was blown up before the completion of the 8.0 gatedecloak to warp cycle. But it seems to me that you are right, and there are a couple of points of information that at the moment are just guesses on my part in this scenario.

1. The distance from the gate at which a ship enters a new system from a jump has what level of variability? It seems to me that it's around 9 or 10km, meaning the sphere of probability there is around 20km. You have said 24km, a precise figure which indicates certainty and experience, so it seems to me the sphere is 24km.

2. From the center of the sphere, the probability that one would be within range of destabs is very high if, as you said, the campers are at a distance from the gate of 0km. Net : coming into a camp of more than 2 people means that you will be destabbed even if you have 2 stabs. Net : stabilizers really only help if you are dealing either with a solo or 2 ship ganker group.

This information, combined with that in other posts, changes my perspective on the utility of stabilizers somewhat.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#47 - 2013-04-26 12:36:55 UTC
iPod Nubz wrote:



Now that you have your answers, /thread.


Thanks for your post. What does /thread mean?
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#48 - 2013-04-26 12:48:13 UTC
Texty wrote:
Todath Narod wrote:
There was no lock warning, meaning insta-lock


Do you happen to have your "Auto Target Back" option set to anything else than 0? It is common for new players to misunderstand the locking effect when you auto-target back the opponent (who has already locked you) as some kind of an indicator of the opponent attempting to lock you.

In this game, there is no warning when someone is trying to lock you. When he is yellow (or red) box, you are already locked.

If you want to disable Auto Target Back, you can find it in the middle section of the General Settings tab. Set it to 0.


FYI : chances are you've probably had this kind of experience before (getting ship-killed at a gatecamp) for me this was a new thing and my familiarity with the lingetty isn't up to snuff apparently.

What I witnessed visually and aurally in the less than 8 seconds after I had looked around while gatecloaked was :

A couple of ship hit/damage warnings flashed on the screen about 2 seconds after initiation of warp cycle (as described above). There were no sounds.

I noticed the shield portion of the HUD went to half strength.

The next update, the shield and armor portion of the HUD were also gone, there appeared to be a little structure left. At this point I realized the ship wasn't going to make it. I didn't notice any other ship hit damage report propagating on the screen.

I started moving the mouse to a warpable destination in the overview (probably a gate other than the one I had just entered), since I didn't want to get podded.

In the next update I got a "notification mail" from the insurance, and it was at that time I commenced warp in my pod to some other place, which started immediately.

At no time was there any sound - what you have indicated above is true: I haven't changed anything in settings related to targetting, so what I previously thought was a target lock warning was really as you have described. So thanks for this.

None of the above was, I would guess, informative or relevant to you - but other new folks reading this may get a further understanding of the context of their own experiences thereby.

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-04-26 12:52:30 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
...Expectation : that I was actually not missing something and this is what you get when you do what I do and there is no way to mine lowsec without losing a proc to a gatecamp like this...
Under the conditions you entered lowsec the answer is... you are dead. If you want to mine in lowsec with a Procurer... change those conditions.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#50 - 2013-04-26 13:55:00 UTC
OP

Given the proliferation gate camps with boosters that allow people to point you out to 40k and web you to 30k no one flys anything larger than a destroyer in low sec without a scout anymore.

And even the frigates and destroyers will get killed in these camps. Its just that they are cheap so people don't mind losing them that much.

Go to null sec or a wormhole or some other place that is more conducive to mining.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#51 - 2013-04-26 14:58:54 UTC
The solution to your problem is simple.

Step One
Scan down a Wormhole.

Step Two
Enter wormhole, scan down the belts in a scout frig. Try not to die.

Step Three
Get Venture with MWD, go forth and mine the ABC ores in the wormhole belts. Watch D-scan like a hawk. Try not to die.

Step Four
Profit!!

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Haulie Berry
#52 - 2013-04-26 15:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Todath Narod wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Katie Frost wrote:
I am unsure why the OP is puzzled with the outcome.

You were engaged by 5 "BS or BC" sized ships. There is a significant difference between the two, by the way but even, for arguments sake, we call them 5 BCs; that is at least 5 points that can lock you in well under 8 seconds - you weren't going to warp off under any circumstances. That is also taking out of the equation the type of ships, damage type applied and the point that your '20k tank' was measured in terms of "effective" hit points.

As to your question of avoiding such outcomes, the short answer is "no" with an 'if' or the long answer is "yes" with a 'but'. The former involves sticking to hi-sec mining, while the latter has been covered in previous posters' responses, namely scouting, using a different (more versitile) ship, fitting advice and so on.



Yeah, his know-it-all tone,


Yeah, same guy who asked the question about breaking tackle. Same guy who expects some know-it-all veterans to make fun of him and/or use his ignorance to demonstrate their leetness. Same guy who doesn't give a rip about all that and still tries to get reliable information that may be of use to other folks who dont have 3 years in the game.


Information doesn't get much more reliable than, "Warp core stabs are ****," to which your response can be roughly summarized as, "NUH UH!" Roll


Quote:
Thanks for that clarification. Its seems to me in game terms its a passive tank...


It's not really a passive tank. It's not even really a buffer tank. It's just... not a tank. A naked procurer, at all 5s, has about 29k EHP vs omni. An adaptive invuln, EM rig, and thermal rig brings that to about 38 omni.

A single damage control II, all by itself on an otherwise naked procurer would give it ~43K omni.

This would still not have saved you, but it would have made the resulting kill mail less lulzy.

Quote:
...but I agree: a real tank has shield and armor tanking modules.


If you're paying attention, you might notice that an incredibly small portion of the fits you see in posts and killmails have dual tanks. The reason for this is simple: They're ******* terrible. Even worse than warp core stabs. Like WCS, the few times you do see them, it's generally a very new player who doesn't know better yet.

You might VERY VERY RARELY see such a fit done on a "bait" ship that is simply trying to maximize its EHP at all costs, but that's a pretty strict edge case.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#53 - 2013-04-26 16:10:47 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
You have no ******* clue how game mechanics work and when people do try to help you, you disagree?

Why bother posting then, figure it out yourself smart guy...





This. Seriously listen to what people are telling you. AB trick you are talking about doesn't work and you're either lying or can't tell time.
Leon Ronuken
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-04-29 01:03:44 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
The solution to your problem is simple.

Step One
Scan down a Wormhole.

Step Two
Enter wormhole, scan down the belts in a scout frig. Try not to die.

Step Three
Get Venture with MWD, go forth and mine the ABC ores in the wormhole belts. Watch D-scan like a hawk. Try not to die.

Step Four
Profit!!



Someone told me there are no belts in WHS.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-04-30 09:02:02 UTC
From the camper's perspective.

I run in these camps much of the time. It is easier to do in nul but not too hard for low.

Really most of the time we don't worry about stabs or not. The alpha nado fit will likely have enough scan rez to lock a frigate in under 3 seconds. That is the point of the ship's fit. Add to that the fact most of the camp was likely using remote boosts of one sort or another it is surprising it took them 8sec to lock you.

The things that escape the instance camps are those with a time to warp less than my lock time. OR things with a proto cloak and MWD. The proto cloak would have been the only thing to save you.

Funny anecdote: We actually had a little guy in a venture walk around us just like this. We had gate bubbled to hell and he cloaked up. He then spent the next half hour dodging our frigs to the edge of our bubbles and got to the next gate.

We got him there as he warped direct...poor bastard... but for his pluck and getting past us the camp donated 100m or so to him for the lolz. Pissed off the frig pilots something fierce.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#56 - 2013-04-30 12:04:52 UTC
- Personally, I think that stabs are not great choice - you assume camp will have only 1 scram or only 2 disruptors while in reality there is no reason not to put point on each gate camping ship - if nothing else, that allows them to catch more then one ship if they come through the gate at once. Sure, it will help if you are engaged by single foe, but you will very rarely see gate camped by one guy and while in belts, you should be able to avoid them using scanner and paranoia and being aligned; it might save you against solo bomber, but not sure it is worthy loss of tank or align time from nanos
- 20k hp is not all that much really - even if not scrammed, expect at last 5k volley from arti bc (tornado will hit you for cca 10k on decent hit); in reality it won't matter though - they ill point you and you will die bit sooner or bit later (and stabs likely won't help)
- if you insist on low-sec mining, you should either 1) use a scout, 2) count losses into your income (in which case high sec mining will be more profitable, but you likely aren't doing it for profit anyway if you low-sec mine) or 3) use venture - it aligns fast, has inbuilt stabs and will yield you poor profit :);
- don't be annoyed if you die to 5-men instant lock gate camp - most ships will, exceptions being things that are really fast and tough
- if you are not sure what happened, check EVE logs, they will list when/if you got pointed and what hit you and for how much;
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-04-30 14:30:53 UTC
Wormholes do have rocks, you just have to scan them down first and possibly contend with sleeper rats (which are no joke)

Art of Explosions
JackknifedII
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#58 - 2013-04-30 15:41:44 UTC
The sad fact is, you uncloaked among a group of BC's that could instantly throw out enough damage to overrun your shields, probably with plenty to spare. There is no way of getting out of that situation.

The only way to make sure that does not happen is to know the gate is clear before jumping though using scouts/alts/whatever.

OR using another ship. Barges are good for mining and not much else. A proc will give you enough tank to survive 1 or 2 suicide destroyers, but multiple high alpha BCs will tear through it like paper. You either have to be small and fast, or know the gates are clear.

I seriously doubt extra stabs would make any difference because odds are you were not warp scrambled by anything other than the BCs, and if they fire together you die in 1 volley anyway.

Minmatar....we are generally unpleasant to be around....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC81MDW6dFa41VdNTt-pTl1Q

Always recruiting
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#59 - 2013-05-01 07:58:38 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:


1. The distance from the gate at which a ship enters a new system from a jump has what level of variability? It seems to me that it's around 9 or 10km, meaning the sphere of probability there is around 20km. You have said 24km, a precise figure which indicates certainty and experience, so it seems to me the sphere is 24km.

2. From the center of the sphere, the probability that one would be within range of destabs is very high if, as you said, the campers are at a distance from the gate of 0km. Net : coming into a camp of more than 2 people means that you will be destabbed even if you have 2 stabs. Net : stabilizers really only help if you are dealing either with a solo or 2 ship ganker group.

This information, combined with that in other posts, changes my perspective on the utility of stabilizers somewhat.


If I recall region gates have a larger surface sphere, so there might be 2 sizes.

In any case, moving about 3 jumps away from the lowsec edge is a bit safer per jump than the entry, recognising that space can be categorised as junctions, pipes, detours, sec borders and deadends, and each categorisation affects likelyhood of camp at gate, and therefore odds of loss of per jump for a non-combat, non cloakwarper.

As a risk averse player, I generally jump into lowsec with a viator, covops or recon which all fit covops cloak and even with my horrible australian ping, I can reliably recloak and warp away without being locked. ie loss at lowsec gates for me = 0 in thousands of gates in the 3 classes. If you must, you can also configure a t3 to do same. It is possible to lose them, a couple of gates have ingame debris at them, and people can leave cans or drones or just plain be on top of you, and interceptor groups can keep chasing you and get to the next gate in time (I warp faster during the full speed part of the warp, they align faster) - been forced to ground a few times travelling along a pipe by frigate groups.

If I wanted a procurer in a specific destination - if it packs to less than 10k it goes in the viator, if it won't pack in less than 10k, I buy a bpc, some 425mm railguns and build it at or near the destination, bearing in mind mfg line station + low station traffic. If its beyond getting into a viator than blackfrog. Note that I've moved several cruisers into lowsec, and I just covops over to them, and then use them in situ and leave them there when I'm done. The covops is sufficient to run ammo in and yank rare drops out.

You can however see that mining in lowsec with its bulky output is a specific problem, that you can't really solve as a completely solo pilot. I would only do it if I was using the output in situ.

I occasionally lose covops - nullsec gates + interdictor got me once, and they are not great at breaking out of station camps even if you have an undock insta, (hence station selection for homebase is important). You do have to accept that shiploss is possible.
Disastro
Wrecking Shots
#60 - 2013-05-01 15:57:41 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
Ran into a gate camp of 5 BCs and better while in my Procurer. Dead in 8 seconds. Wondering if I am missing something about how to survive here - or whether realistically there is any chance of someone surviving these.

The Context

1. My Warp Technique and Modules Used

I arrive at the camp having come through the gate. I have 2 warp stabs on the low slots of my Proc, and there are no bubbles. I am in the jump cloak, and take a few seconds to assess the situation: 5 large BS or BC class craft, most of the same corp, positioned around the gate in such a way as to bring anything that de-cloaks under most or all of the gunnery of the group.

The procurer has two shield hardener rigs for EM and Thermal, and the adaptive invul in the middle slot. Net hit points 20K.

I have shortcuts or a quick mouse established to do the following :

align to next gate
engage afterburner
disengage afterburner
engage adaptive invul
warp to stargate

The above means that the warp to the next stargate will begin in about 8.3 seconds. I do this. In less than 8 seconds, dead. 5 gatecamp non-creative kill ganking ships (with t2 weaps and modules allowing insta-lock, of course) did 20K damage in less than 8 seconds. There was no lock warning, meaning insta-lock - I was locked the millisecond after I came out of warp. (Makes one wonder what all the fuss is about in the game mechanics regarding signature radius Big smile)

Conclusion : no way to survive these things.

Request : point out how there is a way to survive. What I am doing wrong, what modules I should be using, etc.




1. 5 ships with 5 points (disruptors) beats 2 warp core stabs every time

2. Low sec or null sec you are going to lose a mining ship traveling alone with no scout.

3. Bubbles are null sec only. If you were in low sec they could only use a disruptor or scrambler. If they had a heavy interdictor with them you could have had 100 warp stabs and still would not have broken free. Heavy interdictors have infinite point strength.

4. If you want to move a mining ship through null sec or low sec you would want to use a carrier or a rorqual to move it to the destination and then use it only within the one system without every using the gates for travel. These ships are not designed to evade gate camps.